raw and morning puking

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gwd
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raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:54 pm

Have any raw feeders experienced morning tummy upset?

Both boy dog and baby girl occasionally puke yellow bile in the morning. Since raw food doesn't stay in the stomach as long as kibble, their tummies are empty and this occasionally translates to a bit of an upset if I've slept in a bit or if I've fed them dinner a bit on the early side.

<sigh> I'm again washing bedding because boy dog puked again this morning. As per usual, he wanted to be close to me when he felt poorly. thank goodness OH had already left for work so this is something he need never know about (he threatened loss of bed privileges after having to scrape puke off his chest last time).

Last night OH was feeling peckish earlier than normal so, I fed dogs earlier than normal (around 4ish). .......by 6:30am, boy dog had been empty for too long..... thus the yellow bile puke as my wake up call.

Kibble fed dogs don't ever seem to have this issue because of the slower rate that it empties the stomach. Now granted, that slow rate of empty brings on another set of potential issues.......... but being empty for a long stretch isn't one of them.

Another friend of mine has also experienced the same issue if she's slept in a bit or is late getting her girls breakfast........

So do you guys feed later in the evening, a small bedtime snack? What is your solution?
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JudyN
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by JudyN » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:17 pm

I give Jasper a bedtime snack. I'm not a raw purist and until recently it was a wheat-free biscuit or two but currently it's roast meat strips: http://www.pet-munchies.com/treats.html I would give dried fish treats as they're meant to be good for the teeth, but they do make crumbs and I don't want a build-up of stinky fish crumbs in the bedroom carpet :lol:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

gwd
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:54 pm

JudyN wrote:I give Jasper a bedtime snack. I'm not a raw purist and until recently it was a wheat-free biscuit or two but currently it's roast meat strips: http://www.pet-munchies.com/treats.html I would give dried fish treats as they're meant to be good for the teeth, but they do make crumbs and I don't want a build-up of stinky fish crumbs in the bedroom carpet :lol:
http://www.myitchydog.co.uk/pet-munchie ... -100g.html

Does the Chinese origin not concern you?
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Suzette
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by Suzette » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:00 pm

We don't have this issue with Piper at all (and she has been on the RMB diet since about 4 months old and is now almost 3 years). And she is one of those dogs that will not eat multiple times a day. Since a young age, she will only eat once a day and seems to thrive on that. She has her dinner around 5:00 in the afternoon. All this just to give you another perspective on a raw fed dog.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11

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Nettle
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by Nettle » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:05 pm

Doesn't happen with mine but they don't have delicate stomachs.

I'd suggest trying a pre-bed biscuit, maybe made by your good self to ensure safe ingredients.
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by JudyN » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:32 pm

gwd wrote:http://www.myitchydog.co.uk/pet-munchie ... -100g.html

Does the Chinese origin not concern you?
:oops:

They don't mention that on the Ocado (grocery delivery) website, or on the 'About Us' page on the Pet Munchies website: http://www.pet-munchies.com/about.html so I'd never noticed. They're actually made in the UK, so I assume it's just the meat that comes from China so I don't know if that constitutes a problem - it's different from jerky actually manufactured in China, I guess. Do you think there's a genuine concern? I wonder how much meat in standard kibble comes from China?

Though any meat produced in China is likely to be pretty bad in welfare terms, I suspect, and also the shipping isn't good for the environment.

Any thoughts welcome - it may be a little off topic, but maybe not in terms of 'What's a good bedtime snack?' :wink:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

bendog
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by bendog » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:02 pm

Pop & Bendog occasionally puke if they have an empty stomach. But Ben did it on kibble too.

It's not all the time so I don't tend to worry or change anything (gave up on keeping carpets clean a long time ago!).

I wonder if its a bigger issue with boneless meals than bone?
I would imagine bony meals take longer to digest, than tripe mince etc.

gwd
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:13 pm

bendog wrote:Pop & Bendog occasionally puke if they have an empty stomach. But Ben did it on kibble too.

It's not all the time so I don't tend to worry or change anything (gave up on keeping carpets clean a long time ago!).

I wonder if its a bigger issue with boneless meals than bone?
I would imagine bony meals take longer to digest, than tripe mince etc.
That's a good point........ I feed the mince with the bone ground up in it. It's the only way that will work as baby girl is weird and can't think about eating if one is inside and one is outside. ......so I have to feed something where they stick their head in a bowl and gobble it straight down. I'm betting that the larger pieces of bone slow down the emptying of the stomach a bit.

I'll try coming up with a good 'snack' a bit later in the evening........ and I'll take nettles good advice and look for recipes to make at home!
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gwd
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:15 pm

Dogs don't seem happy that I'm pushing back dinner time. Perhaps they think we've fallen on hard times.
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MPbandmom
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by MPbandmom » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:38 pm

Have you tried feeding whole meat? I'm thinking like a chicken thigh. Sky is a bit faster than Sirius at eating, but she will scarf down an 8 ish oz chicken thigh in the length of time it takes one to walk from setting her bowl down in the front of the house, to setting Sirius' bowl down on the side of the house, and walking back to the front door. I think it may have taken her longer to eat a bowl of kibble.

Even a bowl of a variety of frozen bits of meat, vegetables, eggs, yogurt or such, will be consumed by both dogs in the morning in about the length of time it takes me to put half a can of cat food into a bowl and walk it upstairs and come back downstairs. Granted beef and pork ribs take longer, but most of their meals are gone within a minute or two.

My two either eat in their crate/bed area indoors, or on separate sides of the house outdoors, or one indoors and one outdoors. When they eat one in and one out, Sirius will now carry each piece of meat from her dish in the kitchen to the mat by the front door and then eat it there. Containment of raw meat juices was my biggest concern. I do tend to feed mince or Honest Kitchen dehydrated on a rainy day when they eat in their beds.
Grammy to Sky and Sirius, who came to live with me, stole my heart, and changed my life forever as I took over their care and learned how to be a dog owner.

gwd
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:50 am

Interestingly I found this addressed on a website. preymodelraw.com
3. Hunger pukes.
Raw foods digest much faster than kibbles. Some dogs have episodes that we call the “hunger pukes” which basically means a dog isn’t used to not having a system full of food all the time. On a kibble diet, their food lingers in their stomach longer than compared to a raw fed dog’s. A normal, healthy dog will digest raw foods within 6-12 hours from one end to the other. On a raw diet, a dog may go most of the day without food in their system, which again takes time for them to get used to this. Hunger pukes usually come on either late at night or very early in the morning.

The way this issue is addressed by feeding meals that are closer together, and gradually increasing the time between meals. This gives a dog a chance to build up tolerance to not always having food in their stomach. Small and toy breed dogs just need to have several small meals per day, due to physiological reasons. These types of dogs are more prone to the “hunger pukes” so one must adjust their feeding habits based on their dog’s body function.
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gwd
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by gwd » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:53 am

A bit more reading and some new theories. It seems some dogs get more patterned to their feeding time either by their nature, or the habits of the owners. The hunger puking seems to be more of a issue for dogs with owners that are pretty schedule oriented and the dogs are feed at precise times. Owners that are a bit more casual about feeding times don't seem to have dogs that get the hunger pukes.

Boy dog is a very accurate timekeeper. He knows exactly when 4:00 comes and he'll start nose bumping me to go get it soaking. The theory with these dogs that are on a more ridged schedule is that the know when meals are due, they start to produce the bile and stomach juices being to flow....... and then if the food is late, they've got an upset tummy and will puke. Owners that don't feed on a schedule have dogs that don't anticipate......... thus avoiding the issue of the hunger pukes.
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minkee
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by minkee » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:18 am

Scout used to do this when she was on kibble, funnily enough, but doesn't on raw - unless we have a mix up and I think OH has fed her and OH thinks I have ... poor dogs!

They usually get a raw egg or fishy kong first thing in the morning. They don't get a full meal because I prefer to save those for later in the day when I need them kept busy while I work, so our feeding schedule ends up something like:

10am (I keep them sleeping as long as possible!) egg / fish / something easy and small

2pm (after walk, I need Breeze hungry if he's to have any interest in treats outside!) some raw meal

6pm (while we eat dinner) something good and long lasting for Breeze, whatever for Scout (she eats it in 2 seconds flat regardless)

On the evening we will usually do some form of training that can involve any of the regular treats, or sometimes cat kibble. That's anywhere between 8 and 11pm.

So no hunger pukes, but they are fed 3x a day because that's what is most useful for me.

Perhaps they could have a carrot or apple or similar to fill them up on the evening if you're happy with their current intake?

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Nettle
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by Nettle » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:49 am

I challenge the idea that small breeds need more meals. Small breeds have small stomachs to match, and they only need as much food as they need for their size. They aren't cats! :lol:

Ours (large and small) are fed once a day, in the evening unless one is working at night, when it is fed a small meal upon return (because it will be very tired) and then a big dinner the following night to make up for it.

Not saying that's best or ideal, just that it is possible to feed this way with no nasty repercussions. They do get a 'healthy biscuit' last thing, but that is just spoiling, not a necessity. I keep having to change sources as Chinese ingredients infiltrate previously reliable brands.
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Re: raw and morning puking

Post by JudyN » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:53 am

Can I ask which biscuits you give, Nettle?
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009

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