Vaccinations and Socalization

[AliceGrimm]

I am planning to get a puppy sometime next year. I wanted to give myself time to prepare and learn as much as I could before getting a puppy. That being said, I find myself being terribly nervous about this early time period. I know for a puppy socialization is extremely important. However, I am extremely scared of Parvo and other puppy diseases.

So I have a few questions:

Question 1:
How do you socialize a puppy before they finish all their shots?

Question 2:
How do you know people visiting (family members and such) are not carrying in hard to kill diseases like Parvo?

Question 3:
How do you know your puppy is even safe to step out in your own yard and not get Parvo or other diseases?

Question 4:
I know in vet offices you shouldn't allow puppies to approach other dogs, and vets and other places have young puppy classes, are these safe to go to?

Question 5:
Should you be worried if you go out, that you could be bringing back any diseases?

[Nettle]

Q5 IME vet surgeries are the last places to take puppies for socialisation classes. This is not just because of the disease risk, but mainly because unless vet staff have actually studied behaviour to qualification level, they don't know any more about it than the average dog owner. It is a complex and challenging study - the trouble is that people don't know what they don't know.

[Nettle]

Q1 You can take puppies out to see the world - just don't let them in paces where there are loads of dogs. Socialising isn't about being friends with the world but about being unfazed by stuff in the world - cars, trucks, children, people with hats, carrying bags, everything. It's lovely to be with puppy in a safe place and watching the world go by. You can reassure best if puppy is shaky nervous by respecting its fear and going somewhere further back from whatever it is scared of and then by degrees and over time getting closer. Puppies are not consistently fearful but are bolder some days and more timid others. Some breeds show fear by seemingly shouting and driving forward to chase the feared thing away, while others go very quiet, so - know your breed or breed mix.

[Nettle]

I am having to do this piecemeal because the Board times out - hope it doesn't seem too much for you.

There is no right and wrong about vaccination/disease control vs socialisation because the two are diametrically opposed on timescale. The best socialising window is also the time to keep puppies away from the world because they are unvaccinated. We therefore walk a tightrope of decision-making knowing that if it goes wrong we will always wish we'd done the other thing. Here are some things to consider.

More dogs die (are pts)from behaviour issues caused by lack of socialising than the vaccinatable diseases.

some areas in USA have compulsory vaccination for some diseases. I don't know where you live but this is worth checking.

You can socialise for all a dog's life but earlier is easiest.

Disease can as you say be brought in by other people, or carried on passing bird life and wild animals. By the time you get your puppy, it will have been exposed to a lot of germs and its immune system will we hope be firing on all cylinders.

Vaccines are not 100% protection, vaccines can shed, vaccines don't stop other dogs from carrying infection, vaccines have dodgy side-effects on susceptible dogs. I am not saying 'don't vaccinate' I am saying vaccination isn't perfect.

So there is no perfect way and each of us has to do our best. You have loads of time to research but in the end it is these criteria versus those. Critical to your decision is the area you live in and whether there is disease about.

I will now leave the stage to others for further elaboration. And you are going to be such a great owner for thinking this through before you start.

[Erica]

Q1: Puppy classes should be held indoors IMO. Easier to clean up - bleach kills parvo on hard surfaces. When you look around to find a good one, you can ask how they recommend you socialize the dog safely and how they prevent the spread of parvo in their classes. Don't let your puppy meet unknown dogs (even after vaccination really!), since you want dogs that have been vaxxed for parvo etc and who are puppy friendly, which is not the same as dog friendly! Some dogs love other dogs but hate puppies; some couldn't care less about adult dogs but are fantastic with puppies. As Nettle says, it's more about seeing the world than interacting with it. You can carry your puppy pretty safely in most places. When my dog was a puppy, I'd take him to soccer practice with the kid I nanny. We would sit in the car, and he could hear the kids screaming, balls being kicked, whistles blown, etc withour ever touching the ground. (This was just one of the ways we socialized.)

Q2: Have them take off their shoes outside, and if any work/volunteer at a shelter ask them to not wear shelter clothes.

Q3: Unless you've had a dog with parvo eliminate in your yard in the past year or so, your yard should be safe. Parvo is spread through contact with an infected dog's feces or something that has itself had contact with those feces.

Q4: I carried my puppy in the vet's. They do disinfect if they've had a parvo dog come through but there can be other less severe diseases too. I would not go to a puppy class at a vet's for the reasons Nettle stated.

Q5: if you are worried the place you're going to is infected, switch shoes. Wear a certain pair of shoes that now live outside or in your car or in a ziploc bag on the top shelf of the closet. Take them off before you go inside. (With my "shelter shoes," I don't drive with them to prevent cross-contamination with my puppy-class shoes. I put them on when I get to the shelter and take them off after I finish at the shelter and keep them in the trunk.)

People are more likely to step in dog poo than touch it, and if they touch it they'll wash their hands ASAP! So shoes and floors are really the biggest concern.

Familiarise yourself with the early symptoms - lethargy, loss of appetite, etc - as if your dog does contract it, you want to catch it early, before the bloody diarrhea starts. If your pup does get it, ask around with the overnight vet clinics to see what their treatment success rate is. When my sister's pup got parvo, the diagnosing vet recommended a clinic that was an hour and a half farther away than others but which had I think a 70-80% treatment success rate compared to the usual 50-60%. Marble pulled through and was fine!

[AliceGrimm]

Q1 You can take puppies out to see the world - just don't let them in paces where there are loads of dogs. Socialising isn't about being friends with the world but about being unfazed by stuff in the world - cars, trucks, children, people with hats, carrying bags, everything.

I keep trying to find the ideal time for everything but as you said some where, it is sorta all at once. I live in Pennsylvania, I am in one of the smaller townships, that are surrounded by tons of townships. About 17 miles from Center City. But I tend to love to go to the state parks like Ridley Creek State Park, and places like Mifflin Fort, Valley Forge, and other basic parks.

I am also still researching breeders, but the one I like so far allows you to take puppies home at 9 weeks old. I am wanting to get a Miniature Schnauzer.

Question:
So the first few weeks a person can just get the puppy to seeing, hearing and smelling odd things in our world?

[AliceGrimm]

Unless you've had a dog with parvo eliminate in your yard in the past year or so, your yard should be safe. Parvo is spread through contact with an infected dog's feces or something that has itself had contact with those feces.

At the moment, both the front and back yard have no fence. I live in an association with many dog lovers, and we get some traffic of people who walk by as well. Not to mention woodland creatures such as foxes, dear, raccoons, bunnies (which will be so much for for the Miniature Schnauzer), and possums I would assume.

I do want to put a fence in the back and will probably do so before or when I get the puppy. While I don't intend to leave my puppy unsupervised int he yard ever, I am not sure I will allow the puppy to be off leash in the yard until it gets a bit bigger. Granted at 9 weeks, it should be pretty big. But we have a huge hawk population... and while I would totally chase down that hawk, I don't want to tempt fate. Not that they would get my puppy. But I'd rather be safe, then sorry. lol

My problem is I really don't know who has potted in our backyard, or has walked in our backyard. So I am fearful that it could be there. I did some reading on Parvo because I wasn't quite sure how it was transferred. If it was just poop, I could avoid that and or get it cleaned up. But they said this virus tends to be fine living on surfaces for a long while. And is hard to clean a yard with it.

[AliceGrimm]

Disease can as you say be brought in by other people, or carried on passing bird life and wild animals. By the time you get your puppy, it will have been exposed to a lot of germs and its immune system will we hope be firing on all cylinders.

Vaccines are not 100% protection, vaccines can shed, vaccines don't stop other dogs from carrying infection, vaccines have dodgy side-effects on susceptible dogs. I am not saying 'don't vaccinate' I am saying vaccination isn't perfect.

So there is no perfect way and each of us has to do our best. You have loads of time to research but in the end it is these criteria versus those. Critical to your decision is the area you live in and whether there is disease about.

I will now leave the stage to others for further elaboration. And you are going to be such a great owner for thinking this through before you start.

Thank you so much! I do know vaccines aren't perfect, but they do help.

Question:
What would be the best time to allow your puppy to go to parks, and even dog parks or other things?
Or meet other dogs (i.e. play dates with neighbor's dogs and things).

I definitely want my puppy to be well adjusted and feel comfortable in the world and among society. And while it isn't necessary to be friends with all dogs and all people and animals. I would like to make it so my puppy is non-reactive to those things. And will not be scared or frightened of them.

[AliceGrimm]

Q1: Puppy classes should be held indoors IMO. Easier to clean up - bleach kills parvo on hard surfaces. When you look around to find a good one, you can ask how they recommend you socialize the dog safely and how they prevent the spread of parvo in their classes. Don't let your puppy meet unknown dogs (even after vaccination really!), since you want dogs that have been vaxxed for parvo etc and who are puppy friendly, which is not the same as dog friendly! Some dogs love other dogs but hate puppies; some couldn't care less about adult dogs but are fantastic with puppies. As Nettle says, it's more about seeing the world than interacting with it. You can carry your puppy pretty safely in most places. When my dog was a puppy, I'd take him to soccer practice with the kid I nanny. We would sit in the car, and he could hear the kids screaming, balls being kicked, whistles blown, etc withour ever touching the ground. (This was just one of the ways we socialized.)

Familiarise yourself with the early symptoms - lethargy, loss of appetite, etc - as if your dog does contract it, you want to catch it early, before the bloody diarrhea starts. If your pup does get it, ask around with the overnight vet clinics to see what their treatment success rate is. When my sister's pup got parvo, the diagnosing vet recommended a clinic that was an hour and a half farther away than others but which had I think a 70-80% treatment success rate compared to the usual 50-60%. Marble pulled through and was fine!

Thank you so much! I will definitely learn more about it and other things.
I really do love the idea of getting a puppy socialized at places without having to be right there.
Are there any sites or lists of other such great ideas on how to socialize a puppy without the puppy having to be in danger?


Thank you both so very much! I really appreciate it!!