Suprelorin

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minkee
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Suprelorin

Post by minkee »

It is time for a Breeze chat again :D He will turn 2 tomorrow. Ibizan Hound, sensitive soul, funny boy, greyer of hairs.

I took Breeze to try out some scent work with a dog trainer friend of mine. He did really well! But that's a story for another day. Before we got started we had a walk around her fields, and she observed that Breeze was following the path her dogs had taken that morning almost exactly, and stopping where they marked. He was showing no interest at all in following the paths of animals and wildlife that would also have been roaming that field. They even have a resident deer!

Based on this observation, she suggested that it might be worth trying out the reversible castration implant, Suprelorin. The theory being that while underconfident dogs will suffer from the loss of testosterone and feel even LESS confident if they are castrated, if a dog is ONLY underconfident because his testosterone is busy telling him 'be a man-dog! be a big strong man-dog!!' then curbing that may remove the nervousness altogether. It's something she has tried with one other dog and it has worked wonders for him. But obviously that's not the biggest sample size! I can't remember what age he was when they tried it.

Personally, my feeling is that he has just turned 2, and has continued to improve in most areas over the last few months. We had friends to stay a few weekends ago and he didn't shout at them once, where he would have shouted at ANYONE who came into the house a few months prior to that. People are not as scary as they used to be, he's settling down more easily on a night-time, and generally he's calmer and less anxious.

However - he is still VERY agitated by other dogs. He watches them like a hawk, will shout at them if he crosses his invisible mental threshhold. This is not always distance, more like intent and also based quite strongly on what the dog's human is doing. It's also unpredictable in terms of size - there was the cutest, fluffiest, tiniest black spitzy thing puppy that he thought was going to gobble him up whole, and any lab or big muscly dog (these ones at least make more sense) is also a horror to him. Scout and he have also had a couple of skerfuffles in the last month, something that hasn't happened for a long time. He will also NOT pee in the garden unless he's absolutely desperate. I take this to mean that he'd rather hang on to it and mark every single thing possible in the outside world. He can go ALL day without peeing no matter how much prompting I give him. As soon as we leave the back gate he'll pee on everything, and is VERY intense about sniffing any responses.

My initial thought is to give him 6 more months then re-assess. We live in a seaside resort town, so summers are always very busy for us. When the schools go back and the leaves fall down and the rain starts and the sun disappears..... so too do all the dogs. I don't know where they go, do they go home? Do they hibernate? Do they dissolve? Whatever happens, they disappear, and so dog-free or low-dog walks are easier, and more places open up to us for walks. So I think if I spend these next 6 months working on his feelings about other dogs, and letting his puberty wrap up (am I overly optimistic thinking that it *must* be over soon?) then hopefully this will all go away on its own. If he's still overly bothered by it in 6 months time then I can consider the alternatives.

Those are my thoughts so far.... what do you think? :)
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by Sanna »

As always, same here Lou :lol: P and Breeze are so similar in so many ways, and I was having pretty much this exact conversation with a trainer/ behaviourist I know the other week! I really trust her opinion, she is quite amazing a d keeps herself very well educated- she also reckons it might be worth trying with P for pretty much exactly the reasons you've outlined (I've been researching Suprerolin a bit lately, not sure if you read the most recent additions to this thread https://positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18352 ?)

Still just looking into it but I'll be keeping an eye on this topic for sure. Am I mistaken or did I read somewhere that Emmabeth used it on one of her dogs?

I met my first implanted dog the other day, obv know nothing about the dog but the dogwalker (a local one that I chat to sometimes) reckons it had helped him a lot and said the owner was really pleased she'd found out about it and tried it as well. But again,that's just one dog.

What's Breeze like with lady dogs tho? See we're only having problems with other male dogs, P is very respectful of females (tho veeery interested)..
This lady's opinion is that, based on P in particular and him having improved massively in every other aspect but definitely getting progressively worse with other males, she said if it was her decision she would probably do it quite soon because she thinks it is quite likely to help him so sooner rather than later would make sense. I'm still weighing options, and it would also need to be planned quite carefully if I was to go ahead I think; as you know there's a massive surge of testosterone 1-2 weeks after implant so I can only imagine the management I'd need to put in place to get us through a week or so of sky high testosterone levels before they start dropping :lol: So that could make things interesting for you and Scout for a few days I guess..

I'm also thinking that Breeze does sound more shy and sensitive than my big lump P, and if he is slowly improving overall and not necessarily getting worse with other dogs or anything I would give him more time, like you're saying, before making a decision.

Anyway, just thought I'd share as we're always in similar boats :lol: HAPPY BIRTHDAY for tomorrow Breeze! P was 2 last Wednesday, boy time's gone by so fast! And yes, will they ever turn into maure gentlemen..??
Last edited by Sanna on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
JudyN
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by JudyN »

Do you know what his siblings & other relations are like with other dogs? It might help to know whether this was typical for his family or not, and if older ones had grown out of it - might be different dynamics if they live in a group though.
... if a dog is ONLY underconfident because his testosterone is busy telling him 'be a man-dog! be a big strong man-dog!!'
I sometimes think that Jasper's brain is telling him that, but he doesn't have the balls to back it up, hence his dislike of testosterone-laden males. But where you think Breeze is scared by the other dogs (that they're going to gobble him up), I can't see any fear in Jasper's aggression - if he sees a 'scary' dog, like a mastiff, he'll hide behind a tree, not try to attack it :lol:

I'd be working with him on this for the next 6 months, and see how he goes. I don't know when Ibezans usually mature, but Jasper was a lot wilder then than he is now :wink:
Jasper, lurcher, born December 2009
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Nettle
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by Nettle »

Errrr - it ain't broke so why is she trying to fix it?

He's a sighthound. He will always be more sensitive than other dogs. He is teetering on the calender date of adulthood but look at the dog in front of you. Generalised dates are just that. Individual dogs operate to their own timescale.

Just wait. :wink: he'll be fine. If you feel underconfident yourself, go somewhere teenage boys hang out and watch their interactions, grunting, honking, posturing, generally being teenagers. Then maybe you will have your teenage dog in better perspective. :wink:
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WufWuf
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by WufWuf »

FWIW I don't think boy dogs are grown up at 2 by any means, I was discussing this recently with Mr. Wuf and I reckon they are not really mature until at least 3 (sorry don't hate me :mrgreen: ).

As someone who's lost most of their sex hormones I can tell you that it's no picnic. I've had this done both chemically in the past and then surgically and it has very much changed the way I view spaying and neutering animals, it's not something I would do unless I had no other options.
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Nettle
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by Nettle »

A friend of mine from the working dog side of the sighthound world says male dogs need 'a year under each leg' so he thinks they aren't grown up until they are 4.

Thought that might cheer you up! :lol:
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minkee
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by minkee »

Oh GREAT thanks you guys :P

To answer your questions more fully, lets see, where do I start....

I'll start at the end, which is a 'I definitely won't get it done, yet, if ever'

"Ain't broke" - if he was just a bit rowdy or cross or sensitive then I wouldn't be even considering it (nor she suggesting it, I think) - but he has a real terror of other dogs and is aggressive about it. So in some ways he is a bit 'broke'. Especially when he has cross words with Scout - which hasn't happened for a LONG time since I last brought it up, but happened again maybe 2x in the last two months.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly which dogs set him off, Sanna. Large dogs ALWAYS get it, and I don't get near enough to know their sex, but likewise small dogs can get it, female dogs can get it, and because I spend so much of my time avoiding them we don't really get a proper 'sample'. I know that Ruby the young girl Ridgeback was AWFUL, whereas Fidget the collie-terrier mix girl was tolerable. Perhaps that's down to the individual dogs and their levels of antagonism, perhaps it's down to their size, perhaps it's entirely down to how Breeze is feeling on that day. I don't know. What I do know is that he would absolutely lay into these dogs if he was given the chance.

What I also know is that it's REALLY hard to deal with, emotionally. I hate seeing him so upset. He's SUCH a lovely dog through and through, all bar his encounters with other dogs. It's not bad in a management & training sense - I know what to do and how to do it - it does just make me sad all the same. It's not only the vicious, bloodcurdling "GO AWAY"s that he shouts, it's the crying and distress after they have gone away, when he comes to me with his heart beating out of his chest and climbs into my lap despite being taller than I am standing up! It breaks my heart that he's so upset by it all - even just by a lab daring to walk past the front window (He doesn't have a habit of watching out the window but it does happen on a rare occassion that he'll see something out there that upsets him).

This does seem to be normal to a degree within his family. I only really know his immediate family, and that means his littermates who are 2 years old, and his mum / aunt / uncles who are only a couple of years older. I won't go into too much detail about them - they're not my dogs and I don't know all the details - but if anyone wants more info you can PM me. I know that some have some of the same troubles, though.

Also:
Nettle wrote:f you feel underconfident yourself, go somewhere teenage boys hang out and watch their interactions, grunting, honking, posturing, generally being teenagers.
That's not how we build confidence!! I have to go and watch some toddlers from a distance first, right, while someone feeds me chocolate?? :lol:
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minkee
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by minkee »

Also! While I have your attention ;) this may belong in a separate thread but I can just about tie it in to this, because as far as I know castrated dogs hold more weight.

Breeze's weight. I *think* he's alright. He's definitely skinny, and his ribs and bony bum show, and bits of his spine, but his leg muscles are strong, he eats as much as he wants, and generally seems fit and healthy. Here's a picture or two:

Image

Image

These are only phone pics (and I hope they're not too huge!!) so not the best quality, but it seems I don't have any good recent proper pictures of him. I'll see if I have some on my proper PC soon.

Anyway, he seems to be around the same weight as his littermates and mum. Someone asked me about his weight the other day though, someone who DOES know dogs and who I would expect to understand that sighthounds are generally skinnier, so I have been 'questioning everything' including my own assumption that he's fine. Looking at some Ibies overseas they can come up more solid, and what we'd say was more healthy looking in general. Is it....

1) lineage,
2) age,
3) diet,
4) health,
5) all of the above

and more importantly, is it okay? Should I be addressing anything here?
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minkee
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by minkee »

Oh and there was one more thing I meant to mention (sorry for making this so fragmented)

Scout was my first ever dog, and she was neutered at 6 months as per the vets recommendation. So I have never had a boy dog, nor a properly maturing dog before, so it is all new to me.
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by JudyN »

Weightwise I think he's OK - given his age, and based on some skinny saluki x lurchers I know. I can't remember, is he raw fed? Do you know what weight he eats a day... and are his poos OK? If he's eating around the 'guideline amount' and his poos are fine, I wouldn't worry. I'm currently trying to rediscover Jasper's pin bones!

Can't help on the reaction to other dogs, I'm afraid.
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minkee
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by minkee »

No idea how much he is eating in weight, he has as much as I can get him to eat, depending on what we have in and what he and I feel like. His poos are generally fine, though he had some explosive messes the other day that I won't go into detail about!

I messaged a very nice lady from the US who told me this:
He is very nice. Fits the standard. I am the authority, in U S. 41 years in the breed. I have an open mind. Two is still a sapling. The dog should always be in running weight. Not a Hereford.
and linked this article that she wrote: http://www.amberlithe.com/articles/16
The Farmer’s Eye Fattens the Calf

Every day, every meal you should scrutinize your dog’s condition and weight and then feed accordingly. The Ibizan is a leggy, sinewy, slender elegant creature. One look at its conformation and you know it is agile and fast. Fatten it up and you loose grace and endurance. The underweight Ibizan can appear almost skeletal. Adolescent or “sapling” youngsters can be a bit ribby without being underweight. The healthy weight for most Ibizans is to have the last three ribs slightly in evidence, not protruding. Usually there are at least three vertebrae visible along the top-line. Different bloodlines show these ribs and vertebrae to more or less degree. The same thing goes for hipbones. Some bloodlines have them more in evidence than others. Muscle should be strong and flat. Very typey, elegant hounds will really suffer in soundness if not kept in hard condition. This is a rustic, healthy breed that should glow with vigor.

Each Ibizan has its individual metabolic demands, sometimes vastly different even in littermates. One may require twice the calories as the other. Weather conditions and activity levels definitely play a role also. Males may go off food during a *****’s heat cycle. It pays to fatten them up a little if you know when this is going to happen. Even if he never misses a meal, he may burn it up. Some unbred bitches become broody and chubby about the time they would have whelped. Keeping them lean helps lessen the hormonal symptoms of false pregnancies.

From my experience, healthy dogs eat. Thirty-six years in Ibizans have taught me that Ibizans do best on a high-protein, high-fat diet. I add raw or cooked meat to their meals when I can. My own Ibizans love fresh fruit and vegetables. They will dig up carrots, steal apples, and relish salads, (hold the onion and the grapes). At one time when I was milking goats, I used lots of milk and whey. Ibizans eat young tender grass with gusto. They will use the coarse stuff for an emetic.

It is gratifying to see that most Ibizans in the ring are in good lean working weight. Many have dual careers in field and show. Older Ibizans should also be kept trim. The heavier they get the lazier they become. We as caregivers must guard the elegance and athleticism that first attracted us to this breed.
Apparently the Ibizans that were actually from Ibiza, which were the first to show up in the UK and US are more solid, and it's actually the Mallorcan type that are more leggy and angular. Isn't it nice to have such easy access to such vast reservoirs of knowledge :D Though perhaps not when I'm meant to be busy working....
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Nettle
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Re: Suprelorin

Post by Nettle »

I agree his weight is fine.

Without actually seeing his reactions but taking note of what you say about his relations, he does seem within family parameters if rather extreme for 'averagedog'.

Honestly, castration is not what this is all about. He needs more maturity, more confdence, more time. Boydogs are not the same as girldogs in their speed of development. Have you researched the Azawakh? Not dissimilar in shape and with 'attitude' written in as a breed trait.

I like that American article. Lady knows her stuff.

I'd rather watch teenagers than toddlers any day, but I agree that what you actually need is chocolate :wink: and to see some other Ibizans.
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