Choke chains

Discussion of useful training and pet care tools.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

Missy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:53 pm

Choke chains

Post by Missy »

I found a stray Pug, and the vet estimates that he's between 6 mos. to one year old. He has a lot of behavior problems, so I'm taking him to obedience classes at our local high school at night. Our state's obedience training club is sponsoring the class, and they're stating that we use choke chains when training and walking our dogs.

I haven't owned a dog in years, so I don't know what is the acceptable method nowdays, but I'm concerned that this may be a hurtful way to train this dog. I love him so much and don't want to hurt him in any way, so maybe I do need to use this chain until he gets trained?

Any comments or advice you can give would be appreciated. Thank you.
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Post by emmabeth »

No. They work by causing discomfort and pain, and can seriously damage a dogs neck, even more so for a dog already predisposed to breathing problems like a pug.

You can train him to walk nicely without ever using a chain, it takes some perseverence and absolute consistancy.

Just never walk if he is pulling. Stop dead, have treats in your hand and let him come back to you, when he does, give him a treat and walk briskly. Keep rewarding him for being by your side, stop dead if he gets ahead.

If you are consistant with this, he will learn it is his job to keep the leash slack and if he doesnt.... the walk stops.

If he doesnt get the idea that he must come back to you (rather than you tug him back), then a variation on this method is for you to do an about turn and march off in the opposite direction the second he gets a head of you.

This will teach him he MUST walk beside you because you may suddenly disappear off in the other direction.

Once he does walk beside you, make sure he still has reason to pay attention to you, keep using rewards, keep chucking in direction changes, speed changes, stop and ask for sits or downs etc.

Working this way he learns for himself to walk nicely. Using a choke chain you are using force and teaching him if he doesnt walk nicely you yank on his neck. Unfortunately this method is ineffective, as if you yank on a dogs neck his instinctive response is actually to fight and struggle and that means he will pull HARDER.
Ocelot0411
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am

Post by Ocelot0411 »

Eeek, I would say no, no and once again no. Choke chains are horrible things and completely unnecessary. They have to hurt and thats no way to treat any dog, let alone a poor little stray who's had a rough start to life. Your instincts are absolutely right, don't use it.

Also, perhaps most importantly here, I would be very, very concerned about any trainer who would recommend one of these chains let alone instist upon them. Besides which you have to ask yourself, if they have to resort to painful methods to control a dog, is this not just a reflection of the fact that their training is not very good?

So, buy your new dog a nice new comfy collar, and get yourselves something nice that you can share, a new dog trainer!!! :D
Missy
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:53 pm

Post by Missy »

Thank you both for your responses. I am going to continue the training, but will use a harness (I've purchased a couple in the past few weeks). I've talked to others and it sounds like this choke chain training is certainly not the way to go!
cairnts
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:12 pm
Location: townsville,Qld,Australia

Post by cairnts »

my obedience club here in australia use the choke chains,but they only use them for training only never use it while walking,this way the dog knows when it's training time as the chain goes on when he gets to the park for the training session ,my male cairn terrier still uses it as it does keep him in line when he gets too excited but he knows that it's training night as when he's out for his walk he uses a halti ,when he goes to an agility /obedience demo he uses the chain for obedience and a flat collar for agility.

if the choke chain is put on correctly it does not hurt and you only use to correct if the dog makes a mistake,if the chain is fitted the wrong way round it will go tight and not loosen when slackened off ,it is always meant to be loose and click when pulled,and it is only a quick pull and release ,I don't have a problem with them they do what they are designed for if used correctly.
mum24dog
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:31 pm

Post by mum24dog »

cairnts wrote:my obedience club here in australia use the choke when he's out for his walk he uses a halti ,when he goes to an agility /obedience demo he uses the chain for obedience and a flat collar for agility.
So why does he need a halti when out on walks if a choke chain works so well to teach him to walk nicely?
Do you think your dog really can't tell the difference between going for a walk, obedience and agility classes without different types of collar?

Have a look here:-

http://www.dog-school.co.uk/Choke%20Chains!.htm

"It doesn't hurt if used correctly" is just what I was told when I went to my first training class 45 years ago. Training methods and understanding of how dogs learn has moved on since then, although sadly not everywhere.
Some trainers don't know how to train without punishment. Others try to put themselves in the dog's position to understand the effect the way they are treated has on them. I know which I prefer.

Pam
mum24dog
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:31 pm

Post by mum24dog »

mum24dog
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:31 pm

Post by mum24dog »

Is there a profanity filter? Probably just as well or I might post what I really think of compters.

Just type it out instead of trying to link to the site.
Ocelot0411
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am

Post by Ocelot0411 »

That's a really interesting article Pam, thanks for that.
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Post by Mattie »

my obedience club here in australia use the choke chains,but they only use them for training only never use it while walking,this way the dog knows when it's training time as the chain goes on when he gets to the park for the training session ,my male cairn terrier still uses it as it does keep him in line when he gets too excited but he knows that it's training night as when he's out for his walk he uses a halti ,when he goes to an agility /obedience demo he uses the chain for obedience and a flat collar for agility.
Training is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every time you interact with your dog you are training him/her not just an hour a week. A lot of training can be done walking your dog, you don't need training sessions. Like training, obedience should be 24/7 and not just 1 hour a week while at training classes.

A Cairn having to have a choke chain or halti means he hasn't been taught to walk on a loose lead properly, it takes 5 to 10 minutes a day for a few days to teach this without choke chains or halties.

if the choke chain is put on correctly it does not hurt and you only use to correct if the dog makes a mistake,if the chain is fitted the wrong way round it will go tight and not loosen when slackened off ,it is always meant to be loose and click when pulled,and it is only a quick pull and release ,I don't have a problem with them they do what they are designed for if used correctly.
Why correct your dog when if you set him up to succeed there isn't any need to correct just praise them? By setting them up to succeed they get into the habit of doing right and never do anything wrong. I have seen choke chains put on correctly and still don't release when the dog stops pulling causing the dog considerable distress and pain. The click of the chain can also cause a lot of stress to a noise sensitive dog.

I see a lot of dogs, especially Staffies, with choke chains on, that are at the end of the lead pulling their owner wherever they want and making terrible breathing noises. When you ask the owner why the chain, you are told "To stop them pulling" :lol:
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
ALERT DOG TRAINING
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:43 am
Location: PERTH,WESTERN AUSTRALIA

choke chains work!!!!!!!!

Post by ALERT DOG TRAINING »

When used correctly, they work.
You shouldn't have to pull or yank the dog all over the place.
Haltis disguise the problem of a dog that pulls and can be very uncomfortable.
Harnesses merely promote pulling.
I train dogs to walk on a check chain each and every time.
Having been taught the proper correction they do not pull or wander on the leash and are easily trained to walk consistently on a loose leash.
As previously stated - Training is a 24/7 job.
I positively detest training using treats and positive only reinforcement.
It will not work in a month of Sundays.Just ask some of my clients who have been through a number of training methods before trying a check chain.
Ocelot0411
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:30 am

Post by Ocelot0411 »

Alert Dog Trainer, if you 'positively detest' reward based dog trainer, then I am afraid you are unlikely to find anything you agree with here. This is a positive / reward based forum as stipulated one the website's front page, and what you will find within the site is 'exactly what it says on the tin'.

I appreciate that you are entitled to your opinion and as I am not a dog trainer / expert myself I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. However, there are many other dog trainers / experts on this site, including Victoria herself, who do advocate positive reward training and who get results. I therefore find your comment that such methods will 'never work in a month of Sundays', not only factually incorrect, but also frankly a bit rude.

People will always have differing opinions on the right / wrong ways to do things. However, please respect the fact that your view is simply one opinion amongst many. The bottom line of it is, that the method with which you decide to train your dog is one of personal choice. Having read many dog trainers / vets opinions on the use of choke chains, I have considered what I have read and made the decision not to put a choke chain on my dog. Ever. Therefore I will choose an alternative method to teach my dog to walk on the lead, (which is working very well actually, it just requires a bit of patience and a great deal of consistency), as is my right to do so.
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Post by emmabeth »

Alert Dog Trainer, since this is a board for Victorias methods and for positive reward based dog training in general, I am afraid you have come to the wrong place.

You are of course welcome to stay, but please remember this is a happy friendly board and not a place for trolling or argument. From a quick read of the threads here you will see that positive methods are all that is recommended and used by the trainers who post as well as Victoria herself, and we encourage people to think positively as well, if you have no room for methods like that then I am afraid you will not find what you are looking for here.
D
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Post by D »

[A Cairn having to have a choke chain or halti means he hasn't been taught to walk on a loose lead properly, it takes 5 to 10 minutes a day for a few days to teach this without choke chains or halties.]

Please tell you how you manage to do that.
I have been lead training my dog now for 8 weeks and she still hasn't got it all the time. we cant walk her on her collar because she pulls so much we have to use a gental leader.[/quote]
D
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Oxfordshire

Post by D »

A Cairn having to have a choke chain or halti means he hasn't been taught to walk on a loose lead properly, it takes 5 to 10 minutes a day for a few days to teach this without choke chains or halties
Please tell you how you manage to do that.
I have been lead training my dog now for 8 weeks and she still hasn't got it all the time. we cant walk her on her collar because she pulls so much we have to use a gental leader

sorry only just worked out how to quote!
Locked