First of all greetings to everyone here, I am a huge fan of Victoria and her work and it is very nice to meet same thinking people here.
So, here is my problem.
I have two Parson Russell terrier females, mother and daughter actually. The older one is 6 and the younger is 3. The main problem appeared about a year ago when they started fighting. These fights are usually initiated by the older dog. Firstly we thought about domination question between them and we didn't get into it. However, the older dog almost always loses a fight but still tries to take a revenge later. Then we tried to support the older dog's higher position (as I have read in some articles and books on dog behavior) but it was no use as she started literally suppress the younger dog. And now I am frustrated and don't know how we should behave or what could we do. Some important or not so important things would the fact they eat together from to bowls placed aside and never fight over it. They were sleeping together in one box all the time and even now when they can growl at each other while entering the box they still sleep there together. They tolerate and play with each other quite often. They also can lay down on sofa side by side. What I mean they are not completely hostile in every situation, but they are sometimes. They do not fight everyday, sometimes they don't fight for weeks, but we can feel tension between them at some points like going through the door, when younger dog enters a room after the older one and similar. The fights started from entering the box/cage where we were closing them for the night because they were wandering around, getting on the bed at night and we couldn't get sleep. For almost 2 years we had no problems with them at all. They were going to their place with no problems, they were completely comfortable with each other. However, at some point they started fighting while entering. Now we gave them a whole room and they can chose where to sleep as they have two big always open cages. But they chose to sleep together.
As for the fighting we do not try to separate them now as they receive more scratches and wounds then. We either separate them (rarely) if we get a chance to do it fast or we leave them and leave the room. Usually the fight stops within 10 seconds after we leave. So I guess they need spectators to continue fighting.
I don't know what else can be important. They both had training for obedience and now we are going for agility classes. And now I started working with the clicker and it is a great thing!
They have never tried to challenge or dominate us. They have never bitten anyone from our family. However, the younger dog has always been quite hostile with other dogs. We try to get them as much exercises as possible as it is a really active breed. They eat CANIDAE dog food and have no chronic diseases. They both had puppies: the older one twice and the younger one once (we still have two 4.5 months pups of the younger dog with us). Although the pups are not fed by mother both of our dogs treat little ones nicely.
Well, my question is: how should we behave or what should we do to get rid of this "fight club"? What can be the reasons of this? I am really hoping someone can guide me or give some advice. Thank you in advance!
Marina
Two grown-up female terriers problem
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
I can explain, but, I'm sorry, you aren't going to like this.
They are terriers: bred for a hard job, to fight and not back off.
They are two females.
This is an explosive situation and, very sadly, will (I say "will" not "can") only get worse. I would recommend each is exercised as much as possible because tired terriers are less likely to fight than terriers with energy to spare. However, tired terriers can and will still fight.
Be vigilant about flashpoints that might start a fight, and be vigilant about separating them as soon as one eyeballs the other, does the stiff-legged oblique approach or gives any other sign (you will get very good at seeing the tiny signs) that they are about to erupt.
Otherwise one WILL kill the other: she will wait her time and she will do it with no regrets, for although they have been okay until the older one began to age subtly and the younger one reached her full strength, they will never be okay again.
I have been there: I have given the warnings and been ignored, and lucky me I was the one who had to clean up once because the owner was understandably in as many pieces as one of the terriers was. I have first-hand experience of this with other breeds too. It's a b itch thing and it's a terrier thing, and sadly you have both.
Constant vigilance or rehome one is all that will stop you having a similarly horrible experience. No training in the world will stop dogs being dogs. I am so sorry you are faced with this, and my heart goes out to you.
They are terriers: bred for a hard job, to fight and not back off.
They are two females.
This is an explosive situation and, very sadly, will (I say "will" not "can") only get worse. I would recommend each is exercised as much as possible because tired terriers are less likely to fight than terriers with energy to spare. However, tired terriers can and will still fight.
Be vigilant about flashpoints that might start a fight, and be vigilant about separating them as soon as one eyeballs the other, does the stiff-legged oblique approach or gives any other sign (you will get very good at seeing the tiny signs) that they are about to erupt.
Otherwise one WILL kill the other: she will wait her time and she will do it with no regrets, for although they have been okay until the older one began to age subtly and the younger one reached her full strength, they will never be okay again.
I have been there: I have given the warnings and been ignored, and lucky me I was the one who had to clean up once because the owner was understandably in as many pieces as one of the terriers was. I have first-hand experience of this with other breeds too. It's a b itch thing and it's a terrier thing, and sadly you have both.
Constant vigilance or rehome one is all that will stop you having a similarly horrible experience. No training in the world will stop dogs being dogs. I am so sorry you are faced with this, and my heart goes out to you.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
Nettle,
Thank you very much for the answer. Yes, I agree with you on the terrier and females question. But as we are in "Russell business" and many people I know have two terriers and sometimes two females who get along well I still have some hope we can at least control it (which we do, however I have a hard heart to leave dogs with someone else when we go on vacations). I don't consider re homing because I cannot imagine it (though I understand it is sometimes the best solution).
You know, we are already quite good at small signs which show the start of the fight. This is how we managed to minimize the fights. And yes exercises always help. Tired terriers are happy and sleepy terriers. I have some hopes for agility now because they are really into it and they exercise really good (and I do as well).
There are two things I thought about. First, would castration of the older dog be any help? She is a dog we had for breeding and we thought about having her puppies next year for the last time. But if there is any chance castration could help with this problem we could consider it. Breeding is not that important from this point of view. And second: sometimes if we have a peeping toy around we can stop the fight before it started because peeping toys are the strongest treat and biggest currency and fighting is less interesting than that. However, I am a bit worried this type of "problem solution" eventually will get them to think "we fight - we get a toy!" or something like that (like working with a clicker). Maybe it is stupid but I wouldn't want to provoke anything with this.
I am happy they do not injure each other strongly. It is usually only scratches and no deep wounds or whatever. They had the biggest wounds when we tried to separate them. Now we don't and I think it is a good decision. Sometimes they stop without any scratches and everything looks like two males "who's the boss?!" thing: growling, showing teeth, but no biting.
Thank you very much for the answer. Yes, I agree with you on the terrier and females question. But as we are in "Russell business" and many people I know have two terriers and sometimes two females who get along well I still have some hope we can at least control it (which we do, however I have a hard heart to leave dogs with someone else when we go on vacations). I don't consider re homing because I cannot imagine it (though I understand it is sometimes the best solution).
You know, we are already quite good at small signs which show the start of the fight. This is how we managed to minimize the fights. And yes exercises always help. Tired terriers are happy and sleepy terriers. I have some hopes for agility now because they are really into it and they exercise really good (and I do as well).
There are two things I thought about. First, would castration of the older dog be any help? She is a dog we had for breeding and we thought about having her puppies next year for the last time. But if there is any chance castration could help with this problem we could consider it. Breeding is not that important from this point of view. And second: sometimes if we have a peeping toy around we can stop the fight before it started because peeping toys are the strongest treat and biggest currency and fighting is less interesting than that. However, I am a bit worried this type of "problem solution" eventually will get them to think "we fight - we get a toy!" or something like that (like working with a clicker). Maybe it is stupid but I wouldn't want to provoke anything with this.
I am happy they do not injure each other strongly. It is usually only scratches and no deep wounds or whatever. They had the biggest wounds when we tried to separate them. Now we don't and I think it is a good decision. Sometimes they stop without any scratches and everything looks like two males "who's the boss?!" thing: growling, showing teeth, but no biting.
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
We have a family of terriers, Mum and 3 pups (two seperate litters) and they get on fine. They are sealyham/ lucas based so not as hard as yours but working terriers nonetheless. Tension occassionally arises between Tag (mum) and Megan (lurcher *****) this to seems to happen at the door especially when going for the night walk.
We have found that if you can catch the staring and and tension early enough and refocus the dog they are less likely to fixate and then snap. Do you find that the tension increases, the tails go sniff and they won't break eye contact? At this stage either myself or my mum would get between and clap our hands and walk to towards the aggressor backing them out of the situation. This works for us because Megan does not like confrontation and if Tag stops staring at her she won't initiate a fight. When they are working hard they very very rarely (can't remember the last one) have spats. Never let them fight it out step in at the first sniff of tension and resolve it from there.
Work them hard and ensure that each one has a place it can go to be quiet and away from the other.
Tag has recently been spayed and i think it has totally changed her, not necassarily for the better, she is now lazier and greedier than before and has put on weight even though we have cut her food down and her excercise is the same.
We have found that if you can catch the staring and and tension early enough and refocus the dog they are less likely to fixate and then snap. Do you find that the tension increases, the tails go sniff and they won't break eye contact? At this stage either myself or my mum would get between and clap our hands and walk to towards the aggressor backing them out of the situation. This works for us because Megan does not like confrontation and if Tag stops staring at her she won't initiate a fight. When they are working hard they very very rarely (can't remember the last one) have spats. Never let them fight it out step in at the first sniff of tension and resolve it from there.
Work them hard and ensure that each one has a place it can go to be quiet and away from the other.
Tag has recently been spayed and i think it has totally changed her, not necassarily for the better, she is now lazier and greedier than before and has put on weight even though we have cut her food down and her excercise is the same.
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
It is exactly how it looks.Lauram wrote:Do you find that the tension increases, the tails go sniff and they won't break eye contact?
Kari (younger dog) doesn't like confronting too. She won't usually start it first. And she will retire somewhere instead of fighting. Although she is stronger.Lauram wrote:This works for us because Megan does not like confrontation and if Tag stops staring at her she won't initiate a fight.
Well,we are going to go on with trying to break the tension and working out to get tired dogs.
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
Neutering will not work in this case. All but one of the b itches I knew that killed the other b itch had been neutered. The thing with neutering is that it upsets the hormonal balance to such an extent in SOME b itches that they become more aggressive not less. However, as you already know, at season time and pregnancy time, hormones change radically and in SOME b itches this can be good in their relationships with others, but for others it can be bad. Some get very mellow because a pregnant b itch is high-status in the dog world, but others can get antsy for exactly the same reason.
So basically what I'm saying is IMO leave well alone or you could make things worse.
I'd also recommend you have a full health check on the older b itch just in case she is hiding the beginning of illness. Dogs are so quick to pick up on the tiniest weakness. Make sure you get blood profiles for organ function as well as sight, hearing, joint and skeleton checked out.
All the best in what you are doing. Plenty of space, tired dogs and watchful owners may carry you through. I do hope so. Get the whole family on board with this.
So basically what I'm saying is IMO leave well alone or you could make things worse.
I'd also recommend you have a full health check on the older b itch just in case she is hiding the beginning of illness. Dogs are so quick to pick up on the tiniest weakness. Make sure you get blood profiles for organ function as well as sight, hearing, joint and skeleton checked out.
All the best in what you are doing. Plenty of space, tired dogs and watchful owners may carry you through. I do hope so. Get the whole family on board with this.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
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Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
I would remove all the possible causes for tension, even if those arent always the causes of fights ...
So, seperate beds, crated seperately when you are gone, feed well apart, out of sight of one another and pick up empty bowls, no allowing 'swapses' or 'ill see whats in yours you see whats in mine'.
Reducing all the areas that could cause tension (even if they may not appear to be a direct cause of fights) should help.
Clicker training is good stuff, a tired mind is a calmer less reactionary doggy.
Exercise exercise exercise - a tired body is a less reactionary doggy too!
Extreme vigilance, make sure the time they spend together is time actively working hard with you (or someone else) and not 'idle' time where theres the opportunity to niggle at one another.
The more you can take their opportunities and freedom to make decisions about each other away from them, the better for them, the calmer things will be and of course the less likely it is there will be a fight.
As Nettle says though, at some point if you leave things the way they are, one will kill the other, or attempt to do so, so you must take measures to prevent this now and keep them up, dont take any risks.
So, seperate beds, crated seperately when you are gone, feed well apart, out of sight of one another and pick up empty bowls, no allowing 'swapses' or 'ill see whats in yours you see whats in mine'.
Reducing all the areas that could cause tension (even if they may not appear to be a direct cause of fights) should help.
Clicker training is good stuff, a tired mind is a calmer less reactionary doggy.
Exercise exercise exercise - a tired body is a less reactionary doggy too!
Extreme vigilance, make sure the time they spend together is time actively working hard with you (or someone else) and not 'idle' time where theres the opportunity to niggle at one another.
The more you can take their opportunities and freedom to make decisions about each other away from them, the better for them, the calmer things will be and of course the less likely it is there will be a fight.
As Nettle says though, at some point if you leave things the way they are, one will kill the other, or attempt to do so, so you must take measures to prevent this now and keep them up, dont take any risks.
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
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runlikethewind
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Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
Hi there
I've often wondered about fighting dogs in households- for example this female to female problem. If the dogs are spayed, how do they carry on recognising each as female? It's an interesting one, So there must be some residual sign even after spaying that the dogs are female - otherwise the fighting would stop?
I've often wondered about fighting dogs in households- for example this female to female problem. If the dogs are spayed, how do they carry on recognising each as female? It's an interesting one, So there must be some residual sign even after spaying that the dogs are female - otherwise the fighting would stop?
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
Yep, because there is more to what defines gender than just the presence of certain reproductive organs, and testosterone/oestrogen.
Similarly, adults humans (and other animals) who lose their reproductive organs are still recogniseably male or female (though.. lose those organs very early on in life and it IS harder to tell!)
Similarly, adults humans (and other animals) who lose their reproductive organs are still recogniseably male or female (though.. lose those organs very early on in life and it IS harder to tell!)
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Re: Two grown-up female terriers problem
Also neutering affects body smell as the hormone balance is altered (remembering an intact female dog has an altering hormone "reading" according to where she is in her cycle).
So dogs read them as "wrong" even if the dog doing the reading is also neutered - its scanning information is programmed to recognise entire dogs of either gender as "right".
In dog status terms, the entire female is top of the tree, then the entire male, then the neutered female, then the neutered male is right at the bottom of the heap.
Which is why there are so many anxious reactive so-called "aggressive" but actually fearful neutered males, and why I am so emphatic that the individual behaviour problem needs to be solved BEFORE a dog is neutered. And why neutering rarely fixes a behaviour problem, though it is useful for human/dog social issues.
So dogs read them as "wrong" even if the dog doing the reading is also neutered - its scanning information is programmed to recognise entire dogs of either gender as "right".
In dog status terms, the entire female is top of the tree, then the entire male, then the neutered female, then the neutered male is right at the bottom of the heap.
Which is why there are so many anxious reactive so-called "aggressive" but actually fearful neutered males, and why I am so emphatic that the individual behaviour problem needs to be solved BEFORE a dog is neutered. And why neutering rarely fixes a behaviour problem, though it is useful for human/dog social issues.
A dog is never bad or naughty - it is simply being a dog
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
SET YOURSELF UP FOR SUCCESS
