Martingale vs. Halti - questions

[MichelleD]

Hi All:

I've been walking Gordon with an easy-walk harness. He pulls like a MANIAC whenever there's another dog, cat, rabbit, squirrel, etc. around. He's pulled me to the ground, dragged me, left me with bruises and wrenched shoulders, etc.

The harness works fine if he's just tugging on the leash to investigate a scent. But when he wants to take off after something, he can put all of his german shepherd muscle behind it and he wins the strength contest for sure! I try to keep aware on our walks so I can avoid any of those triggers, but sometimes he smells or sees something long before I do. This morning for our 6 am walk, he started to take off and drag me and we hadn't even reached the end of the driveway yet! I have no idea what he was going after -- I saw nothing! Perhaps it was a small rabbit or something, but he was definitely on the trail.

OK .. so I went to the pet store and bought a Martingale collar (at least, I asked for a Martingale collar and they gave me something that says "no slip" so I'm assuming it's the same thing?). The lady at the pet store showed me how to use it, and she said that in those instances when the collar is tight (either because he's pulling, or in the case of a quick correction), she said the two side rings should NOT come all the way together.

I put the collar on him this morning, and at the foot of the driveway when he wanted to take off, the collar tightened and I could see that the rings were closed together at that point. I got scared of choking this dog or damaging his trachea. I took him right back into the house and waited about 5 minutes before trying the walk again. Before resuming his walk, however, I put the easy-walk harness back on.

So now I'm wondering if that collar is the best for him, or would a halti be better? But that would make me nervous about him hurting his neck when he wants to bolt after prey.

ARGH! I'm so confused ... he's making progress for sure, but I just want to get this behavior under control so that I can walk him and feel safe, knowing that I'll return home in the same condition I left!!

Any thoughts or education on these two options? I'm not sure what to do. Thanks!

p.s. What are your thoughts on whether he should walk beside me or at leash length? She said with his breed it was a mistake for me to allow him to walk at leash length?

[Sarah83]

What are your thoughts on whether he should walk beside me or at leash length? She said with his breed it was a mistake for me to allow him to walk at leash length?

Personally I don't care where my dog walks as long as it's on a loose leash and he's not cutting in front of me and tripping me up, depending on where we are depends on how much leash he has. On the roads he's on a short enough leash that to keep it loose he has to be roughly at my side, on the grassy area round the corner he gets the full leash length. I have no idea how the dogs breed could possibly make a difference to this.

As for the rest, I use a halti with Rupe and have got very good at spotting "prey" before he does. Plus it's impossible for him to drag me down the street while keeping the leash loose. On the harness he's more likely to lunge but I've not put the hours of training in to loose leash walking that I have with a halti so that probably plays a part. Plus it's what we use on the field with a long line so he gets a bit more leeway with it than he does the halti.

[Mattie]

Hi All:

I've been walking Gordon with an easy-walk harness. He pulls like a MANIAC whenever there's another dog, cat, rabbit, squirrel, etc. around. He's pulled me to the ground, dragged me, left me with bruises and wrenched shoulders, etc.

The harness works fine if he's just tugging on the leash to investigate a scent. But when he wants to take off after something, he can put all of his german shepherd muscle behind it and he wins the strength contest for sure! I try to keep aware on our walks so I can avoid any of those triggers, but sometimes he smells or sees something long before I do. This morning for our 6 am walk, he started to take off and drag me and we hadn't even reached the end of the driveway yet! I have no idea what he was going after -- I saw nothing! Perhaps it was a small rabbit or something, but he was definitely on the trail.

Gordon shouldn't be pulling to investigate a scent, that is teaching him that pulling is ok which you don't want, instead go with him if your lead isn't long enough, you must keep the lead loose.

You are bigger than Gordon and can see much further ahead, you need to be more alert to what is round you and spot them before Gordon does so you can take avoiding action. I would have turned and walked him back home if I hadn't got to the end of the driveway, take him back in the house and wait a few minutes before going out again but making sure he was undercontrol.

OK .. so I went to the pet store and bought a Martingale collar (at least, I asked for a Martingale collar and they gave me something that says "no slip" so I'm assuming it's the same thing?). The lady at the pet store showed me how to use it, and she said that in those instances when the collar is tight (either because he's pulling, or in the case of a quick correction), she said the two side rings should NOT come all the way together.

What I have put in bold horrifies me, if the 2 side rings don't come together it is like a choke chain and will strangle your dog, these rings MUST come together just. These collars are very popular for Greyhounds, Lurchers and long necked dogs, they could do a lot of damage to the neck if the rings don't come together.

I put the collar on him this morning, and at the foot of the driveway when he wanted to take off, the collar tightened and I could see that the rings were closed together at that point. I got scared of choking this dog or damaging his trachea. I took him right back into the house and waited about 5 minutes before trying the walk again. Before resuming his walk, however, I put the easy-walk harness back on.

Very sensible of you, a harness is much safer than any collar.

So now I'm wondering if that collar is the best for him, or would a halti be better? But that would make me nervous about him hurting his neck when he wants to bolt after prey.

ARGH! I'm so confused ... he's making progress for sure, but I just want to get this behavior under control so that I can walk him and feel safe, knowing that I'll return home in the same condition I left!!

There are several things that may work, clip another lead or use a double-ended lead clipping one end to the D on the back and another to the ring in the front. You then have more control over the front of Gordon.

You can also use a headcollar, walk him on the harness and only bring the headcollar into use when you need the extra control, again use 2 leads.

p.s. What are your thoughts on whether he should walk beside me or at leash length? She said with his breed it was a mistake for me to allow him to walk at leash length?

I don't worry where my dogs walk as long as the lease is loose, depending on where we are the leash varies from short were my dogs are walking quite close to long were they are in front. Do what is comfortable for you and Gordon.

[MichelleD]

Thanks Sarah and Mattie!

I had also considered the possibility of using two leads -- GMTA!

"Gordon shouldn't be pulling to investigate a scent, that is teaching him that pulling is ok which you don't want, instead go with him if your lead isn't long enough, you must keep the lead loose."

If I go with him to investigate everything he wants to sniff, I'll have a lot of upset neighbors! I don't know that they'd appreciate me walking through their yards.

" if the 2 side rings don't come together it is like a choke chain and will strangle your dog, these rings MUST come together just. These collars are very popular for Greyhounds, Lurchers and long necked dogs, they could do a lot of damage to the neck if the rings don't come together."

I'm totally confused about this collar! I thought if the rings came together it meant it was too tight and would choke him ... the pet store lady was emphatic that the rings should not come all the way together.

I don't want to seem like I'm "rushing" his training. I'm very patient. But this is one issue that I need to get under control for safety's sake -- his, mine, and bystanders! It's hard enough to think of being pulled into the street, but knowing that when winter arrives and the roads and sidewalks will be slippery, I realize I need to get him trained with better walking skills fairly quickly. Not to mention the fact that I can't afford to be out of commission with a pulled shoulder, back, etc.

He's lucky he's cute! Actually, he's lucky that he's a really good dog in so many other ways that matter. He has so much potential!

[Mattie]

Thanks Sarah and Mattie!

I had also considered the possibility of using two leads -- GMTA!

It does give you more control, you can have one lead attached to the collar and the other to the harness or both on the harness, one clipped to the front.

"Gordon shouldn't be pulling to investigate a scent, that is teaching him that pulling is ok which you don't want, instead go with him if your lead isn't long enough, you must keep the lead loose."

If I go with him to investigate everything he wants to sniff, I'll have a lot of upset neighbors! I don't know that they'd appreciate me walking through their yards.

I was imagining you walking along a lovely, leafy lane and Gordon sniffing in the hedgerow

Turn and walk the other way, have you read the thread on loose lead walking? It really does work, 10/15 minutes of walking up and down the same piece of pavement does tire dogs out more than you think.

" if the 2 side rings don't come together it is like a choke chain and will strangle your dog, these rings MUST come together just. These collars are very popular for Greyhounds, Lurchers and long necked dogs, they could do a lot of damage to the neck if the rings don't come together."

I'm totally confused about this collar! I thought if the rings came together it meant it was too tight and would choke him ... the pet store lady was emphatic that the rings should not come all the way together.

The ring should be touching each other, if they are the collar can't do any damage, if they are not, they can do damage. I don't think they are any better than a flat collar apart from the dog can't slip out of them as easily.

I don't want to seem like I'm "rushing" his training. I'm very patient. But this is one issue that I need to get under control for safety's sake -- his, mine, and bystanders! It's hard enough to think of being pulled into the street, but knowing that when winter arrives and the roads and sidewalks will be slippery, I realize I need to get him trained with better walking skills fairly quickly. Not to mention the fact that I can't afford to be out of commission with a pulled shoulder, back, etc.

Read the Loose Lead walking threat and try it, it has helped a lot of people. You are taller than he is so can spot things before him and take avoiding action, you need to watch out more because of this. When you spot something in front of you turn and walk the other way before he sees it. If he does see something, get him away as fast as you can. What does work sometimes when a dog doesn't want to come is to stroke the lead with alternate hands, it is amazing how this works.

He's lucky he's cute! Actually, he's lucky that he's a really good dog in so many other ways that matter. He has so much potential!

You will soon get him trained, the secret is to be very consistant with what you are doing.

[Noobs]

Too add to what Mattie said about the loose leash walking training, it does work as long as you start with little to no distractions. Gradually increase the distance (hence, gradually increasing distractions as well). In addition to that, I would suggest doing some "focus" training inside the house first and then take it outside. Practice click/treat for eye contact, gradually increase the duration of the eye contact. I'm very lucky, my dog is VERY food motivated, even if I feed him before clicker training - you'd think he never gets fed! - so he can focus on me all the live long day when we're training. It eventually translates to the walk if you keep practicing first at home and then during the walk. Walk, focus train, walk some more, focus train. That might be something you can consider once you guys have cracked the loose leash walking portion. Good luck!

[jacksdad]

while no and low distraction places are best to start loose leash (or any training for that matter), you can train a loose leash with low, mild and high distractions going on. It's not ideal, it's much harder for you and the dog and you have to be VERY, VERY patient and understanding with your dog when they break focus. Understand that it WILL take A LOT longer, but it can be done. I have two choices for training Jack. In the house with no distractions or outside with a wide range of distractions low through high. I am not lucky enough to have a back yard to make a transition from living room to outdoors.

If you don't have a back yard, then try and find places you can go (even if it means driving there) to do a bit of low distraction outdoors training. Had I had 2 brain cells to think of that one back when I started counter conditioning jack's re activeness and trying to teach a loose lead walk it would have gone a bit faster.

[jacksdad]

I'm very lucky, my dog is VERY food motivated, even if I feed him before clicker training - you'd think he never gets fed!

ROFL,,,that's jack....

it can be 5 minutes after his dinner, I will be fixing my food and he will be looking at me like...yummm can I have some? it's been slooooow long since my least meal...at least 5 minutes.... a doggy can starve in that time.

In fact I am thinking of telling people who ask what kind of dog he is, telling them he is a chow hound

sure makes counter conditioning a reactive dog much easier when they think they are on the verge of starvation even if the just finished a full meal.

[MichelleD]

It's taken me several days to get back online and check the responses -- thank you for the advice! It's been crazy-busy here with my husband traveling and my son now off to camp for a week. Right now it's just me and the dog! ("and" not "or")

So, I continue to work with him on our walks. He's so smart and he learns everything very quickly -- his manners have improved immensely since I got him. But his reactions when we're outside and there are other animals around are instinctive and predatory. He's on the hunt. Can those behaviors be controlled??

I've gone back to using the easy-walk harness for now because that's what I feel the most comfortable with at the moment. I DON'T think the halti is the right collar for him. But I think I have a bigger issue than any collar can address! I'm far from an expert, but I don't know if a predatory instinct can be trained away? How would one even do that?

[Mattie]

So, I continue to work with him on our walks. He's so smart and he learns everything very quickly -- his manners have improved immensely since I got him. But his reactions when we're outside and there are other animals around are instinctive and predatory. He's on the hunt. Can those behaviors be controlled??

I've gone back to using the easy-walk harness for now because that's what I feel the most comfortable with at the moment. I DON'T think the halti is the right collar for him. But I think I have a bigger issue than any collar can address! I'm far from an expert, but I don't know if a predatory instinct can be trained away? How would one even do that?

You can't stop a dog's natural instincts but you can control them, Nettle has working dogs so she is the best person to advice you with this, if she doesn't see your post pm her.

[CaninesCanDo]

With patience and perseverance you can better control these instincts. It does help to work with a Group Class to "proof" your dog's behavior regarding STAYS, and in general, paying attention to you. Have you ever considered participating in any APDT or AKC companion events with your dog? There are group classes for all sorts of things these days. You can start with basic obedience working with a positive trainer and then progress to Rally. There will be other dogs around, but the idea is to work and become a team until the distraction isn't nearly as satisfying for your dog as working with you. I speak from experience. My Wheaten Terrier was extremely prey driven. I channeled this into retrieving, which made it both positive and non-forced. That being said, with a prey-driven dog such as a terrier, I never took him off-leash in public. Why take a chance?

[CaninesCanDo]

He earned a RN,RA,CD,CDX and was double-certified for therapy, an evaluator dog and herding-instinct tested. He was also schooled in tracking and agility. Keeping your dog's mind busy and active helps too. And it's FUN and SOCIAL for you!

[Mattie]

With patience and perseverance you can better control these instincts. It does help to work with a Group Class to "proof" your dog's behavior regarding STAYS, and in general, paying attention to you.

I don't agree, this owner is having problems with her dog, she needs to work with him with low distractions before she attempts to go into a situation were there are a lot of dogs, that is flooding him and never works, it can shut a dog down so that they seem to be accepting the training.

Have you ever considered participating in any APDT or AKC companion events with your dog? There are group classes for all sorts of things these days. You can start with basic obedience working with a positive trainer and then progress to Rally. There will be other dogs around, but the idea is to work and become a team until the distraction isn't nearly as satisfying for your dog as working with you.

That is going far too quickly for this dog and can do a lot of damage mentally to him, this owner needs to take it steady at the dog's pace not her's which she is trying to do. Putting him into this sort of situation will confuse him and may even shut him down.

I speak from experience. My Wheaten Terrier was extremely prey driven. I channeled this into retrieving, which made it both positive and non-forced. That being said, with a prey-driven dog such as a terrier, I never took him off-leash in public. Why take a chance?

This dog doesn't just have a prey drive, there are other problems which you should check first before giving advice, the wrong advice can be dangerous to the dog and owner. It is difficult giving advice on the internet anyway, we need to get all the facts first then we can still get it wrong.

[Nettle]

Can you tell us precisely what he is doing over the "prey" situation that is worrying you, and what you would like him to do instead, and we can work with you and him there.

My dogs have a huge prey drive, so it is something I am very comfortable with handling, and very realistic about.

[MichelleD]

Hello! OP here ... I haven't been able to get on very often lately, and when I do I quickly peruse any interesting threads (can't read every one of them anymore..) and log off ... Noticed one of my old posts was pulled up so I checked to see what was new on it!

No, Gordon is not ready in any way for any kind of group activity. We're making progress slowly, but on top of his very primal prey drive he's very dog-aggressive. I'm now doing fewer (and shorter) walks with him and doing more work in our own back yard, using a neighbor's dog sometimes (two doors down) as my "stooge" dog. She's an older, calm dog who is secure in her own yard while Gordon is secure in his. I can use her presence, when she's outside, to my advantage because she's close enough that he can see her and react (which we're decreasing), but not so close that he goes "over the top."

While I would love to be able to participate in things like agility or group activities, other dogs would most definitely be at risk and it would probably set back what progress I've made so far. Maybe in the future ...