leash reactive dog making progress, but....

[jacksdad]

Jack has been making a lot of progress the last couple of weeks. But we had about a week long set back which raised a question about stress. Let me try and explain what I am wondering.

a week ago Jack had three really, really good days and by day three he was not "exploding" when he saw a dog, human, cat, bird, duck, child nothing while walking with a leash. on day one he passed 6 dogs. Dogs 1 - 5 no "exploding" or "freaking out". But dog 6 he did. Dog 6 came 1 minute or so after dog 5, and of all the dogs this one showed interest in Jack. Even though I walked us off the path and behind a bush and tried to distract with treats, Jack still couldn't handle it.

Then 2 days of basically just about ideal behavior followed. However on Day 4, starting with our first walk of the day in the morning, it was like the previous three days had not happened.

So, my question is. Because his non reactive behavior is still not 100% a "habit" for him and new, is his stress levels still building when he sees another dog even through he isn't lunging, barking, and otherwise freaking out. Do I in addition to being mindful of distance, need to be mindful of how many dogs we encounter? i.e. he can deal with 5 encounters right now but not 6 before his stress levels reach a point he can't remain calm and stay focused on me and the treats.

On the chance this is the case, I have already took some action to help Jack by on 3 different days going places were he would not encounter dogs, and when we went back to the main park I use, I went back to 100% avoidance for a few days. It seems to have paid off. Friday, Saturday, and today I didn't make any extra efforts to avoid dogs, but was still mindful of distance. He would on a couple occasions give a halfhearted lunge or I could see his body gearing up, but when I would call him to look at me he would start relaxing again. With one exception, tonight I worked us a little closer then normal to a dog and but keep the "exposure" brief and quickly and calmly moved on. No reaction. Jack was more interested in me and the treats.

Anyway, I want to get your all's option on this. Are his stress levels still building to an "explosion" even though he is mostly externally calm? And as such, do I need to be mindful of "too much success" and give him a break after a few successes so he stress levels stay low and manageable?

[Pawzk9]

So, my question is. Because his non reactive behavior is still not 100% a "habit" for him and new, is his stress levels still building when he sees another dog even through he isn't lunging, barking, and otherwise freaking out. Do I in addition to being mindful of distance, need to be mindful of how many dogs we encounter? i.e. he can deal with 5 encounters right now but not 6 before his stress levels reach a point he can't remain calm and stay focused on me and the treats.

On the chance this is the case, I have already took some action to help Jack by on 3 different days going places were he would not encounter dogs, and when we went back to the main park I use, I went back to 100% avoidance for a few days. It seems to have paid off. Friday, Saturday, and today I didn't make any extra efforts to avoid dogs, but was still mindful of distance. He would on a couple occasions give a halfhearted lunge or I could see his body gearing up, but when I would call him to look at me he would start relaxing again. With one exception, tonight I worked us a little closer then normal to a dog and but keep the "exposure" brief and quickly and calmly moved on. No reaction. Jack was more interested in me and the treats.

Anyway, I want to get your all's option on this. Are his stress levels still building to an "explosion" even though he is mostly externally calm? And as such, do I need to be mindful of "too much success" and give him a break after a few successes so he stress levels stay low and manageable?

It sounds like you are doing a great job. And I think that you are absolutely correct. Even if he doesn't react, meeting dogs is still stressful and still takes a toll on his reserves and ability to do more. Consider if you have a day filled with stressful events. You'll probably handle the first few fine, but as tension continues to build you are less able to cope, because you've received so many little jolts that your system hasn't had a chance to go back to base-line, and you over-react to some thing that would normally be a non-event. I'd try to cut encounters short at one or two meetings, and then gradually see if he can handle more. It takes a considerable time for a dog (or human) to clear adrenaline/epinephrine out of his system Best luck, Sandy in OK http://www.positivelycanine.com

[GoofyDog2]

I think dogs are less stressed if they are allowed to exchange normal greetings where they use calming signals and sniff each other to get a feeling for each other's temperament, stress levels, and intentions. I realize that not all owners welcome other dogs "saying hi", and some dogs may send the wrong signals and it may result in escalation of tension and a possible fight. If you can read the signals and learn when to allow this communication, and when to keep the dogs apart, then at least some of the encounters will be successful and better socialization will be the result. Continued avoidance of other dogs, especially if the handler conveys negative energy, can reinforce the dog's fear that there is something scary about other dogs and the situation may get worse.

Distracting him with treats while he is still excited about the other dog may reinforce the wrong behavior, and it may be even more stressful if he knows the other dog is nearby (smell, sound), but he cannot observe his signals, and thus assumes the worst. Being on leash is especially stressful because it limits his options of flight or fight.

[Nettle]

You are doing just fine and it is very much as Pawzk9 says.

So keep on as you are planning to: Jack has to gain confidence at his own speed, and that is a matter of two steps forward and one back, some days more than one back, some days more than two forwards.

At this stage it is FAR too early to let other dogs interact with him unless you are certain of that other dog's good manners and Jack is confident of it also. Sadly, the majority of dogs have lousy social skills for a variety of reasons, and if one of these gives Jack a bullying (as we all know, a hard stare or the wrong body language on approach is enough) your progress is rattled back several stages because key to it is his confidence that you will protect him.

Goodfydog, it's a great theory you give but it doesn't stand contact with reality. The sooner we shed the idea that dogs need doggie friends as an important part of their lives, the better. Strange dogs approaching are not friends. There may well be a time in the future where Jack meets certain other dogs with pleasure and enjoys their company, but it isn't now.

Jacksdad, this is a great time to assess other dogs' body language - you can watch them interact with other dogs without bringing Jack into the scene. The more practice you get at assessing other dogs' body language, the better you will be placed to see what is about to unfold before it does. I find it addictive

[Mattie]

Jacksdad you are doing great, Jack is improving all the time, I have found that when they have a set back, they seem to jump forward in a leap then slow down again.

It took me about a year for Gracie to accept other dogs without reacting and she lived with 2 others.

I think dogs are less stressed if they are allowed to exchange normal greetings where they use calming signals and sniff each other to get a feeling for each other's temperament, stress levels, and intentions.

Thinking about how to solve problems is something we need to do GoofyDog, but as dogs don't speak our language and don't understand what we are trying to tell them, also other dogs don't know how to talk in Dog language either, we need to have experience of these situations before we can advice others on how to solve the problems. What experience do you have with a dog aggressive dog?

I realize that not all owners welcome other dogs "saying hi", and some dogs may send the wrong signals and it may result in escalation of tension and a possible fight. If you can read the signals and learn when to allow this communication, and when to keep the dogs apart, then at least some of the encounters will be successful and better socialization will be the result. Continued avoidance of other dogs, especially if the handler conveys negative energy, can reinforce the dog's fear that there is something scary about other dogs and the situation may get worse.

The problem with this is while the owner is learning how to read dog language, their dog is getting worse and worse which will make the problem harder to solve. Many owners never learn how to read their own dogs never mind others, are these owners to let their dogs behave like this?

I know from experience that avoiding other dogs does work, dogs learn that other dogs are not scary monsters but friendly dogs that will play with them. What experience do you have with a dog like this Goofydog?

Distracting him with treats while he is still excited about the other dog may reinforce the wrong behavior, and it may be even more stressful if he knows the other dog is nearby (smell, sound), but he cannot observe his signals, and thus assumes the worst. Being on leash is especially stressful because it limits his options of flight or fight.GoofyDog

This shows your lack of knowledge with dogs Goofydog, when a dog is reacting he can't take the treats, his brain is in shut down so he can fight or flight, it is before your dog gets to this stage that very high reward treats are likely to get the dog's attention and keep it. Once a dog is reacting, there is nothing an owner an do except take the dog away.

Of course a dog being given treats can observe the other dog and what he is doing, unless the dog is blind of course.

You are right about a dog being on a lease can't run away out of trouble so the dog has to fight, but if the owner doesn't give the dog the chance to go into fight mode, takes action to avoid this, they dog is learning that other dogs are not scary monsters.

[jacksdad]

Thanks for the feed back.

I am still not intentionally setting up dog/dog encounters. If they happen on a walk we deal with it. I am still working on him being calm at distance. I want that more reliable before I try anything like setting up a "stooge" as emma calls it and intentionally work jack closer for a meeting.

Jack's "calm zone" is all over the map. I have seen him react to a dog 100+ yards away, but be 100% calm 10 feet from a ST. Bernard. So I had been shooting for keeping at least a 20 yard buffer minimum when possible. But lately as the weather gets better we are encountering more an more dogs and it's not always possible. so what I have been doing is if he is remaining calm, ask for a sit, and let him look at the dog and stuff him with treats. But I only allow this for a few seconds then we head off for distance before he gets overwhelmed. If he doesn't look like he can handle it, we move for distance as quick and calm as possible.

As we make more and more progress I am able to watch jack more and be on the look out less. Which is helping me learn his body language better.

Ok, so I will be mindful of how many successes we have as well as distance.

[Mattie]

I didn't set up dog/dog encounters with Gracie, we had a lot of dogs living in my area that we passed daily, it took me all my time keeping her calm and eventually she would let a dog pass quite close without her reacting, I cried that first time. I didn't feel the need for her to meet dogs, I prefered that to happen naturally, which it did in the vets waiting room. She was a perfect angel, I watched her body language to see if she was showing signs of stress and reacting but she didn't. She had quite a long conversation with this dog. I never worried again but still watched until the day she passed away.

[emmabeth]

I think your thinking is pretty spot on Jacksdad - good thinking!

I reckon I would try to mix and match his walks thatinvolve seeing other dogs - if you have a day where he passes three without reacting, maybe the next day or two, go somewhere (or sometime) where there are less dogs or you have more control over the distance..

Never forget as well.... quit whilst you are ahead! Pass four dogs without reacting? Go home! If that results in a shorter walk that day, go stand out on the street and do some training for treats and some 'weemail' sniffing around bushes and lampposts maybe.. (where you can zoom back inside if you see another dog coming)..

Goofydog - back to the drawing board I reckon.

Yes - dogs CAN be less stressed if allowed to exchange greetings normally. However sidewalks and leash laws make this difficult, dog parks are full of unsocialised or plain rude dogs, and not every dog can talk 'dog' properly, never mind not every owner can read their dog correctly. So in an ideal world - great.

We dont live in that ideal world, so avoiding other dogs until stress levels are down, and then managing and working with other dogs beyond the dogs 'react' zone is the way forwards. Or do you propose that we just march up to a strange dog, with our on lead, fear aggressive reactive dog, screaming and lunging ... to introduce them? Which is going to result in a fight and possible legal action!... I dont think so. Would YOU be happy if you were walking your dog peacefully and i came marching up with my out of control nutter, freaking out and fighting like a fish on a line 'because he wants to say hi' - you wouldnt!

Continued avoidance isnt what we are advising - avoidance is PART of the solution, but there are far more parts to it than just that!

Even so, if you JUST avoided other dogs successfully, the likelyhood if you making the problem worse is pretty low - unless of course you avoided by freaking out every time you saw another dog, pulling the lead tight and conveying YOUR terror to your dog, then yes in that case you could well make your dog worse. But then that wouldnt actually be avoidance as we advise on this forum anyway.

Coupleing treats with the sight of something currently scary is called counter conditioning, and it works. You dont do it when the dog is still reacting, you do it before they react, at a distance where they see... but dont yet go the whole hog on their scale of reaction, as when they do that.. they cant think!

Please do read through the forums a little more, I think you have missed rather a lot.

[jacksdad]

Goofydog, I don't want you to feel picked here, I know you meant well with your advice and was just trying to help. However, I used to be that person, the one who thought he was helping his dog by letting him pull me over to another dog while my dog was as Emma says "an out of control nutter". Please believe me. It didn't help. In fact Jacks "nutter" reactions just got worse.

Again, everyone thanks for the feed back and conformation. It really helped and was in the back of my mind tonight and it paid off. Tonight took a lot out of jack, so we are going to really work to avoid dogs the next couple days. The good news is, tonight was a huge learning experience for both Jack and I. Going to share in the success stories.

[Horace's Mum]

Jacksdad, you are doing really well, keep it up. As for reacting to some dogs close and others at a distance, if you watch the other dogs as well as Jack carefully, you will start to get a feel for which dogs he can cope with closer, and which dogs he can't tolerate under any circumstances!! St. B's tend to give off fairly relaxed, chilled signals, so although they are big, their language is good. Little terriers are often the worst, they can give off very aggressive signals, so although they are small Jack can't cope so well with them. Size isn't indicative of scariness to dogs, it all depends on their body language. I can tell fairly accurately now which dogs Horus can cope with looking at and walking past, and which ones need me to resort to sitting or even getting well away from to prevent a reaction. Just something else for you to learn!!

[GoofyDog2]

I am a bit hesitant to reply, but I do want to explain what I meant to say, as I think it has been misunderstood.

Emmabeth said:

We dont live in that ideal world, so avoiding other dogs until stress levels are down, and then managing and working with other dogs beyond the dogs 'react' zone is the way forwards. Or do you propose that we just march up to a strange dog, with our on lead, fear aggressive reactive dog, screaming and lunging ... to introduce them? Which is going to result in a fight and possible legal action!... I dont think so. Would YOU be happy if you were walking your dog peacefully and i came marching up with my out of control nutter, freaking out and fighting like a fish on a line 'because he wants to say hi' - you wouldnt!

Of course, I do not advocate that and I have never done that with my dog, who has been dog aggressive sometimes. If she shows interest in meeting a dog, and as long as she remains fairly calm and under control, I will allow her to sniff and greet the other dog if the owner has no objection. I watch closely for any signs of aggression, such as a rude stare, and terminate the meeting before it escalates. If she does not calm down after such an encounter, I practice avoidance as recommended. But when the greetings have gone well, I sense a lessening of tension in both my dog and myself. But perhaps she is not as reactive as the OP's dog. And I spent some time socializing her with individual dogs I knew to be friendly before attempting it with strange dogs.

Jack's Dad said:

I used to be that person, the one who thought he was helping his dog by letting him pull me over to another dog while my dog was as Emma says "an out of control nutter". Please believe me. It didn't help. In fact Jacks "nutter" reactions just got worse.

I found it was important for my dog to be in a fairly calm state, and attentive to me, before allowing interaction with other dogs. A little bit of excitement and pulling was OK, and often the other dog was also showing excitement. But I would not allow her to be out of control. That is a recipe for disaster.

Emmabeth said:

Coupleing treats with the sight of something currently scary is called counter conditioning, and it works. You dont do it when the dog is still reacting, you do it before they react, at a distance where they see... but dont yet go the whole hog on their scale of reaction, as when they do that.. they cant think!

That is what I meant, actually. I thought JacksDad said they were hiding behind a bush and was feeding treats while Jack still acted nervously. If he is actually ignoring the other dog, and being attentive and relatively calm, then that is something that may be rewarded. But it is tempting to give treats prematurely, as a bribe, when the dog is still thinking and worried about whatever scares him, and rewards given then will reinforce the fear rather than the wanted behavior.

[Pawzk9]

That is what I meant, actually. I thought JacksDad said they were hiding behind a bush and was feeding treats while Jack still acted nervously. If he is actually ignoring the other dog, and being attentive and relatively calm, then that is something that may be rewarded. But it is tempting to give treats prematurely, as a bribe, when the dog is still thinking and worried about whatever scares him, and rewards given then will reinforce the fear rather than the wanted behavior.

Actually, sometimes it isn't about rewarding bad behavior, but simply changing the meaning of the situation. If new dogs become a predictor of good stuff - and food actually helps switch dog from reactive to thinking brain - you are classically conditioning a new emotional response. I worked with a little dog yesterday who was very stressed about her housemate (much bigger, rowdly adolescent.) When he was let loose with her, she visably stiffened and starting curling her lip and grumping. I asked her owner to do some slow, very connected body work with her. The question - isn't that reinforcing the fear? Looking at the much more relaxed wet noodle of a dog, I asked if she looked like we were reinforcing the fear. If we were "reinforcing" fear or reaction, she would have still looked fearful/reactive. But she didn't.

[GoofyDog2]

Actually, sometimes it isn't about rewarding bad behavior, but simply changing the meaning of the situation. If new dogs become a predictor of good stuff - and food actually helps switch dog from reactive to thinking brain - you are classically conditioning a new emotional response. I worked with a little dog yesterday who was very stressed about her housemate (much bigger, rowdly adolescent.) When he was let loose with her, she visably stiffened and starting curling her lip and grumping. I asked her owner to do some slow, very connected body work with her. The question - isn't that reinforcing the fear? Looking at the much more relaxed wet noodle of a dog, I asked if she looked like we were reinforcing the fear. If we were "reinforcing" fear or reaction, she would have still looked fearful/reactive. But she didn't.

That's a very good point, but hands-on body work (I assume you mean like a massage) is inherently relaxing and reinforces attention to the handler and the bond of trust. And the level of stress was apparently much less than a dog described as an out-of-control nutter. Also, I understand that many dogs will not even accept food if they are seriously fixated or fearful, so accepting the food might indicate an acceptable lower stress level that can then reduce the emotional response of anxiety and fear. Probably anything that redirects the dog's attention away from the object of fear to the calming signals of the handler will help. And ultimately it is probably the emotional and mental state of the handler that will be most effective in calming the dog and helping him learn that there is really nothing to fear.

[Mattie]

GoofyDog, what you are doing is what we recommend, this is the internet and we can't see each other which makes things difficult, we can only go on what is written which can easily be misunderstood, especially as we live in different countries.

The hardest part of dogs and the internet is our own minds, with dogs we have to learn to try and think dog so we can encourage them to do what we want and can help them overcome fears etc. With the internet it is very easy to read into posts what isn't there and assume things that wasn't intended, done this many times in the past and suffered from it. We do need to learn to take what is written as happened, not to assume what was meant but mainly not take things personally which can be very hard to do. We are a lot of strangers who have come together through our love of dogs, we are from different countries and different cultures but mainly do a very good job of understanding each other. If people asked and said when they didn't understand something, it would make life so much easier for them and us. Not getting at you when I say this, I am also guilty of this at times.

[Nettle]

I was at a dog show on Sunday, and met with a dog that was a pup last year, nice dog, nice people, dog highly reactive to others.

A little advice then from our small group of trainers (eg the dog wasn't being walked because they had a huge yard ) and natural growing up, and the dog has made good progress.

During the show, he would lunge, growl and scream at certain dogs but not others, and his reaction distance varied from dog to dog. But he never reacted to polite dogs. Every dog he reacted to had challenged him first. They could tell he was a flaky adolescent, and up for it. The body language was very subtle, but if you were tuned into it, it was certainly there.

It was something his very nice owner simply couldn't see. She is in despair about her dog (keeps trying to give him to me) and he is lovely. He isn't ready to meet other dogs yet, but the show experience is good for him because these shows have plenty of space and it is easy to move back out of the reaction zone.

His time will come, but it isn't yet. I hope his owner keeps faith with him. I am writing this to give you all encouragement, to say that there are many pieces in this jigsaw, that it all takes longer than we would like and that we have to go at the dog's pace.