Rescue Dog with extensive bite history

pragmacat · Post by **pragmacat** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:35 am

Hello!

I'm new to this place, but I thought it would be a good forum to ask about my sweet new pup Cheeto. I've really enjoyed Victoria's shows on Animal Planet and much prefer her methods to another Animal Planet star who shall remain unnamed ...

Cheeto is 1/2 Jack Russel and allegedly 1/2 Corgi. She is about 5 years old and my boyfriend and I have had her for a month.

For the most part, she's a little dream dog. Our routine looks like this:

- Wake up, put on her halti, take her out to potty.
- Food time! Yay food! She is made to sit and wait until we say she's allowed to eat.
- Walk #1, 30 minutes to an hour.
- Additional potty time.
- Walk #2, 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes it's more of a run than a walk.
- Play time (generally initiated by Cheeto when she's up for it - she really slows down when it's hot here in LA)
- More potty time.
- Bed.

She is fairly responsive to commands and for the most part is a doll.

Unfortunately, her not-so-great history seems to haunt her.

When she first got to the animal shelter, she was 15 pounds heavier. HUGE. From the shelter, she was picked up by a no-kill animal rescue. The first foster home gave her up. As did foster home two. Then she went to a third foster home with a woman who uses the methods of the trainer who shall remain unnamed who has a popular show on National Geographic.

Why did she have so many homes? She bites. Not nips, bites. My boyfriend is currently nursing an infected hand and is on a round of antibiotics.

She gives a warning, but it makes giving her any affection quite difficult. She'll come over to the couch, snuggle up against my leg, let me pet her, then roll onto her belly to ask for a belly rub. If I comply and rub her belly, she first looks happy and then ... she curls her lip and shows her teeth. If I continue, she bites - with obvious intent to do serious harm.

This happens whenever we pet her. Essentially, if we don't watch her mouth, we are bitten. We can't gaze at the tv and casually stroke her fur, we have to watch her lips like hawks.

Apparently she has some skin allergies (we are using colloidial oatmeal shampoo and medicated cream as needed) and she has skin rolls from her weight loss. She's also obviously insecure. I wonder if her skin hurts when petted too hard, and the aggressive training methods used on her in the past probably didn't help her insecurity. The trainer (her last foster) told us to push down on her neck with two fingers whenever she curls her lips at us, but frankly I feel this just makes her more insecure. She actually bit my boyfriend the last time he tried this.

It seems that if I pet her very, very, very softly and slowly, I can avoid the lip curl much of the time. We've also learned to completely avoid touching her in her crate or while she's on her bed. When asked to get up and come to us, we're able to bathe her, check her mouth and get her lead on without incident.

Can any of you suggest additional things my boyfriend and I could do to help her become a confident, relaxed pup? I want to think that with some careful care and trust building, I may be able to casually lay on the couch and pet her without risk of losing my hand.

Her behavior is especially confusing to me, because she tricks you into thinking she's fine. She's affectionate and loves to snuggle up to you, looking perfectly relaxed and happy. Then you pet her and she's suddenly upset. She goes from zero to baring her teeth to biting. No growling whatsoever. She'll also run up to you, plop down on your feet and roll onto her back. Her body language screams, "pet me!" It's hard to resist.

That was the problem last night. We invited her up onto the bed and she plopped down on my boyfriend's arm. He went to pet her (she was looking away from him), and he didn't notice her lip curl. After a little while, she bit his hand, he startled and flung the arm she was on up in the air (making her airborne) then she went back and latched onto his hand and shook her head. There are three deep punctures in his hand and infection has already set in. Immediately after biting him, she got off the bed, ran into the livingroom and cowered. I ran over to her, firmly said, "No! Bad! No biting!" and told her to get into her crate.

Sorry to ramble, I just want to make sure I give you enough details. Essentially, my questions are as follows:

- What should I do to stop this behavior entirely? Is there hope that she'll get used to us and stop biting?

- What should I do once she bites? My boyfriend has a bad habit of making ZERO sound when he's hurt, so she doesn't get the verbal feedback of, "YELP OUCH!"

It's hard to explain that she's a great dog, minus being unable to pet her. She knows when she's been bad and goes to a corner to physically cower. It breaks my heart.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:35 am

You and boyfriend are doing fine, but you are doing too much too soon

First of all she needs a thorough vet check including blood tests for organ functions, in case there are any underlying pain issues.

That being clear, we have not-so-underlying fear issues. You show great awareness that her prevous ill-treatment has contributed to these. Also she is a combination of breeds with a built-in bite, so she is more lkely to use her mouth first than last.

Don't pet her. No matter how much she seems as if she is begging to be petted, don't for now, and don't have her up next to you on bed or sofa where an inadvertently raised arm can bring flashbacks of her previous abuse. Softly softly catchee monkey!

What is happening is that she invites petting and then all of a sudden it's way too much for her so she bites (cats will do this too - roll over as if they want to be petted, then savage the petter). So let her initiate contact and when SHE touches YOU, speak quietly and pleasantly but don't touch back.

This isn't for ever, it's for now

She has a lovely routine - all I'd change is walk before you feed. It is very important that dogs do not exercise when their stomachs are full. Give her a small something to eat, then walk, then feed.

Others will have more wisdom to share, so I'll stop here for now.

Fundog · Post by **Fundog** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:14 am

All I can say is to echo what Nettle said. You've only had her for a month, and she has some very deep psychological scars from her past. Give her time, as Nettle says, and she'll come around-- you'll see. In the meanwhile, you will have to be on guard, watching her body language, and if you have friends over, put Cheeto in a safe haven where she can feel assured that no one will try to touch her-- this is for your guests' safety as well as hers.

And if you do slip up and sustain another bite, don't yell at her or say "bad!" Just speak softly and soothingly, and give her some space and time to herself in a quiet place she can seek refuge in.

My family acquired a second dog from rescue last February. She too came with some excess "baggage." One of her little quirks is that sometimes she gets into a skirmish with our first dog-- the problem we've noticed is, that even though Dottie (second dog) starts it, she is more upset than the "victim" dog. She is trembling violently, and breathing hard. When this happens, we find she is every bit as much in need of soothing and comforting as the "victim" dog is, if not more so! Yelling at her and telling her what a bad thing she did would only make her more insecure and fearful, and would not help at all. After a few minutes of soft words and soothing, the two dogs kiss and make up, and all is washed under the bridge-- until next time, lol. The only difference between my dog and yours is that Dottie absolutely craves affection, can't seem to get enough, and has never bitten us for loving on her. With your dog, just omit the petting for now when she has these traumatic moments.

Horace's Mum · Post by **Horace's Mum** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:13 pm

Firstly, good on you for keeping her. Secondly, I know just how you feel because I have a rescue dog who bites apparently out of the blue, and often in very similar situations to yours. I say bites, because he hasn't completely stopped yet, and maybe never will, but he is fabulous with me on my own now, he just gets stressed with other people, even those he knows fairly well.

As the others said, I soon learnt never to offer contact, or to seek it, but to wait until he came to me, then allowed him to take the contact he wanted, and then it would stop. So I never approached for a stroke, if he did his version of rolling over for a cuddle (pushing his nose up into my hand) then I would softly hold my hand for him to rub against but I didn't offer him any more for several months. I realised that he would seek company, but then couldn't actually cope with it when it persisted, so i let him feel his own way.

Once we got to the point where he was allowed on the sofa (about 6 months down the line), again, I couldn't put my hand out to stroke him. At first I just sat next to him, ignoring him, and if he rubbed against me then I would talk and smile to him, but didn't move my hand except to turn it over so he had my palm (that is an important gesture for him, it tells him you are friendly). BUT a year on and I can put my arm over him and cuddle him, stroke him and rub his tummy without a problem, although I always offer rather than demand, he always has a choice to say no. He has also not reacted when people he doesn't know so well have done this very occasionally (and against my say so!!)

It IS possible to make him feel safe and reduce the bites, my feeling at the moment is that my boy will always use his teeth if he is put in a situation that is beyond his comfort zone, but the comfort zone is widening because I never put pressure on him. But you must be absolutely consistent, go at his speed, and listen to what he is telling you. You are very lucky that yours will snarl, mine didn't and often still doesn't he would just launch himself at you and he is about the size of a collie.

We have been working now for about 20months, and I feel completely safe when we are at home on our own, but always watch him when others are around, and some people never meet him, but he is getting there faster than I ever thought. So take any idea of timescale out of your head, take the pressure off all of you and enjoy what you can do with him safely for now, play lots, do clicker stuff or trick training to build trust and confidence, and leave the petting for now. Not for ever, but just now its too much.

Oh, and when he does bite, literally ignore it. Just stand up or move away, let her calm down, no yelling or anything. Once she has settled a bit (I'm talking a few secs, not hours) ask for a sit or paw or anything and reward her for that. I could never ever even shout at my dog, despite him being deaf, because he would keep coming. If I just ignored it until he had calmed down and realised he was actually ok, then gave him something easy to do that I could reward, he started to learn that he didn't need to shout at me, he just needed to talk to me when he wasn't happy and I would listen. So watch for that lip curl and back off IMMEDIATELY - you don't want to lose it. You might find she starts to growl as well, which is brilliant, listen to that too. You need to let her know that you are listening to her, understand that she is scared, not nasty, and its ok for her to communicate with you.

If she is with one of you and the other person notices the lip curl, the second person should instantly call her away and reward her with a treat or toy - she will learn from both of you that you are both watching out for her and if you are consistent with this she will learn to take herself out of situations rather than reacting to them. If I were you I wouldn't use any negative sounds at all, not even "no", just ignore all the bad stuff completely and reward everything and anything you can find that she does right, even if it seems tiny and not worth rewarding. I am not saying that with no experience, I have a dog who I cannot say no to, he can't hear me, and if I shout without even moving it is still enough to set him off. So absolutely everything I do is redirection and reward, he is never ever punished in any way imaginable. I may take it to an extreme but it does work, as long as you are consistent. And make sure anyone else your dog comes into contact with either follows the same rules or never meets her. Full stop.

Good luck!! Its hard work, but that first tummy rub without a reaction will be like winning the lottery and more, you will just have to wait a while for it to happen. Bear in mind it takes an average of 6 months for a rescue to settle in, and if yours has been round the houses it may take even longer. Mine took 18months, and even now is still changing day by day.

ckranz · Post by **ckranz** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:31 pm

There definitely seems to be something medical underlying this whole situation. On top of that being timid and shy, she may be fearful of eye contact.

As others have stated avoid petting for now until the results of your vet's test. Now there are some things you should start perhaps would be desentizing to touch...note touch is not petting:

Chin rest game:
present a treat in such a way that your dog's chin makes contact with your other hand. Since both hands are occupied use a marker word to mark contact with your hand.

Start with just brief contact and slowly work on building duration. Duration is built by keeping your open and out and providing a reward stream while the dog remains in with hi chin rested upon you other palm, or you have given 5 treats.

Use the same techniques in this game for touching the neck (helps with allowing to to leash and collar a dog) each paw (helps with grooming and nail trimming).

Also for now keep this dog away from kids and do not let them interact.

pragmacat · Post by **pragmacat** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:32 pm

This is extraordinarily helpful advice, thanks so much!

I thought waiting three weeks to give affection was an eternity, but I'll let my boyfriend know that we need to take things much slower.

As for keeping her, she really is a darling little dog. I fell in love with her on Petfinder, so there's no going back.

Thank you again, I'm excited to hear that it's something that can improve over time. We'll get her to the vet ASAP.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:37 pm

She gives a warning, but it makes giving her any affection quite difficult. She'll come over to the couch, snuggle up against my leg, let me pet her, then roll onto her belly to ask for a belly rub. If I comply and rub her belly, she first looks happy and then ... she curls her lip and shows her teeth. If I continue, she bites - with obvious intent to do serious harm.

Having had 5.5 wonderful years with a dog that would bite for nothing when she came, going at your dog's pace is the best way. Dogs who do this have learnt that they have to, you need to change this and you can do it. Your dog is biting for a reason, you may never know that reason but it is real to your dog.

Your dog is warning you, you are very luckly, Gracie didn't warn she just bit, when your dog warns you back away, this will teach her that you can be trusted to listen to her, you are not putting her under pressure like many people by trying to prove to the dog that they are better as the previous fosterer has done.

Watch your dog, when you see she is getting uncomfortable then move away and give her space. It won't take long before she is starting to trust you and like me, you will eventually have a wonderful dog.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:06 pm

Excellent advice from everyone so far!

I just wanted to add two things:
One: the rolling over may NOT be an invitation to a belly rub at all, but may simply be a submissive gesture towards you.

Two: the lip curl may also be preceded by a whale eye..many people miss this subtle sign of fear. If you can see the whites of her eyes at all or her head is turned away but her eyes are ON you she may be feeling very anxious as well.

You may want to check out the books "On Talking Terms with your Dog: CAlming Signals" by Turid Rugaas and "Canine Body Language: A photographic guide" by Brenda Aloff.

Another great book is "Scaredy Dog" by Ali Brown.

Good luck and good for you for giving Cheeto the love and care that she deserves. The progress may seem slow, keep a journal, so one day you can look back and see how far she has come!

pragmacat · Post by **pragmacat** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:35 pm

Update:

Hi guys! Thanks again for all of the wonderful advice! It really helped to know that it takes a significant amount of time for rescues to really settle in.

I have a couple of follow-up questions on a few specific things, if you have a few minutes to indulge me.

For all I know, they're related issues (anxiety, maybe?).

1) Moving feet aggression.
Three incidents occurred lately -
a. Boyfriend's mom was over for a visit. Cheeto could not take her eyes off of bf's mom's feet and eventually lunged at them. I intervened, but she chomped down on my hand.

b. I was walking with my boyfriend and my cousin. At some point, something startled Cheeto, the bf, and my cousin all at the same time. My cousin squeaked, and both she and my bf started to run. Cheeto flipped out and attacked (for a prolonged period of time) my cousin's pant leg. I ended up pulling her away by her leash, and, once she calmed down, I made a point of doing a bunch of commands (sit, etc.) with treat rewards to try and distract her from the stress of what just happened.
c. This morning, my boyfriend jogged after me playfully. Cheeto flipped out again, went at his feet and started snarling, nipping, biting at him as he did a "OMG SHE'S BITING MY FEET" jig (I'm sure that didn't help). She didn't have a leash on and wouldn't stop even as I tried to get her attention with a toy, a treat, my voice (but not yelling), etc., so I threw a towel over her and held onto her until she stopped squirming. We tried to let her up and she freaked out again, so I used the blanket as a shield and shooed her into her crate. I wasn't sure what else to do in that instance. After we let her out, she cowered for a bit, then came up to my boyfriend and sat by his feet, looking up at him with a forlorn expression on her face.

2) Skin allergies.
She's still pretty itchy, even with an antihistamine and colloidal oatmeal shampoo. Could she be itchy from anxiety? Someone I know suggested "Sulphioxidex." Do any of you have any experience with it?

3) Licking. Lots and lots of licking. Couches, sidewalks, people.
I think that issue is pretty self explanatory.

4) A weird random eye issue.
So, Cheeto and I were walking in my neighborhood, happily trucking along, when I stopped to check my cell phone. She sat down, rummaged around in the grass with her nose, then looked up at me. There was a piece of a leaf on her eye. Not eyelid, but on her actual eyeball eye. She wasn't squinting or tearing up. She just kept looking at me, not blinking. I assume that the normal reaction to a huge irritant in your eye would be to squint. Not doing so seems ... a bit ... off. Could this be indicative of a bigger issue, or do I worry too much?

Other than these incidents, she has been MUCH improved from when we first got her. She'll still get a little tense with affection now and again, but she is infinitely better.

Someone suggested Prozac, but I'd really rather avoid prescription meds, if possible. I'd be more open to food-based and/or herbal remedies, if anyone knows of anything for anxiety.

Thanks again for all of your help - this is a really wonderful, helpful community.

Happy Friday!

pragmacat · Post by **pragmacat** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:44 pm

By the way, I'm still happy to try and let her go at her own pace, but it's hard to know what to do when she's quite literally spazzing out on you, doing some (but not a lot) of damage. My boyfriend tried to simply stand there, but he was barefoot and had on shorts, so it began to hurt after a little bit. I'd say she was going at him for a full minute at least, and it only seemed to get more frantic as time went on.

I think I just want to know if there's a better way to handle these situations in the moment, and/or if there's a chance that she has an actual anxiety problem. I'm not sure I like our vet enough to to trust her to really delve Cheeto's problems.

emmabeth · Post by **emmabeth** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:45 pm

Thanks for coming back and updating us!

Well done for sticking with it, its hard, HARD work you are putting in, even if it feels like you are just trying to restrain yourselves from going too fast.

From your intial post and then the follow up, your pup has a LOT of anxiety/insecurity issues (the licking is a HUGE clue to this!)...

I think the biting moving feet/freaking out hysterical behaviour is part of her breed mix traits (jrt, corgi... moving objects, GET UM!)... and part to do with how shes been treated in the past (certain nameless Nat Geo 'star', and whatever was before that!).

So... she makes a mistake and she over reacts - once she has overreacted she doesnt know what to do to get out of this behaviour pattern.

You cant teach her anything good once this occurs, you can really only limit it happening in the first place, and do 'damage limitation' when it occurs...

So... where possible, either dont take her for a walk if people will be running around/yelling.... wear proper shoes and socks and pants ... have her on a trailing leash so she can be removed from a situation with minimal manhandling.

As Nettle said in response to your initial post.... these things are NOT forever, so hang on in there!

Being itchy wont be helping her, and dogs will instinctively hide pain and discomfort as long as they possibly can, so if she looks a BIT uncomfortable its likely shes quite a lot uncomfy!

Have you tried her on an exclusion diet to rule out itchies caused by food? Grain is a big trigger for itchies so a good start would be a grain free food. You dont *have* to get a vet involved (its sometimes helpful but most vets are actually NOT nutrition experts) to do an exclusion diet... the idea is if you do this properly, to change her food to a brand new protein source, so pick a meat shes never had before... feed that plus one vegetable for a few weeks. Easier if you feed it raw and its easier to balance if you do this, so for instance... raw venison and raw pulped carrot. (Possibly not cheap but its harder these days to find a meat that ISNT in lots of dog foods, it used to be easy to use lamb or turkey but loads of dog foods use these now so cant be guaranteed to be a novel protein source for her).

Once you have her eating that for a few weeks with an improvement in condition, add in 1 new ingredient each week - if you see a reaction remove that item from the diet.

If you DO go down the raw route, you can ask us here for more info and theres lots of info available online. Several of us feed a raw diet but there is more to it than just raw meat (for instance you do need to feed some bone, some offal, etc).

Stick with the stuff you started to do before - listening to her, letting her make the moves and not pushing anything on her.

Do you do clicker training with her? If not take a read of the clicker training thread and have a go with that, it should help her confidence no end and build better trust with you (and whoever else does this with her, like your boyfriend).