Hi All,
I am in the process of adopting a 18 month year old female German shepherd. I am currently fostering her. The main issue besides prey drive for squirrels is that she is very shy and frightened of some people. I am thinking that someone did something wrong to her in the past.
When we walk on a leash she will sniff at people as they walk past. I actually encourage this behavior with treats and praise although some people look at me weird when I do so. I figure however at this point showing that approaching people is a good first step to trying to fix the fear. She actually has met some people when out walking that she enjoys but I am amazed at how many people don't listen to me or the dog and try to smother her with affection causing her to bark and say "Back off, I don't want a stranger to invade my space." The reason that bothers me is that I don't want to keep having a good start end that way and people don't listen when even I say, she is getting antsy please take a few steps back.
In the home however is another problem. At first she used to bark at all my friends and my roommate. Now after a few days of treats she loves to follow my roommate around and doesn't normally bark at him. My friends usually get barked at then sniffed and then depending on who they are played with or left alone. She really does like people but she is just so afraid at the initial meeting. I am looking for a way to make her more comfortable in greeting people at the door and introducing her to new people.
I have tried at a trainers suggestion to make her sit and stay (which she does so well outside and when I am alone) before answering the door. But that doesn't last when I open the door. Even if it is my roommate who she no longer barks at when he comes in, she barks at him and runs until she realizes "Oh wait this guy is part of the pack and fun.". I tried to do a fake run where I make her sit and stay, then open the door to no-one and that works now. Initially she started barking, but stayed sitting. Now she no longer barks.
I know this will take time and I might not be able to get rid of all the fear. My guests will always be prewarned that they just have to let her do the meeting and to give her space until she decides everything is fine and looks for more. However I just feel that I am not even making progress and I am wondering if anyone has any additional tips to make this better.
Thanks.
Defensive Aggresive Dog
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
I suppose I should be more clear about the behavior at home. On a leash she does not show signs of aggression at all persay other than barking. At home she puts her tail between her legs and definitely shows signs of what some would call defensive aggression. She is obviously wants them the guests to leave her alone. Usually treats and sitting down help alleviate the problem but the moments are very tense for some guests.
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Horace's Mum
- Posts: 1129
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:10 pm
From my experiences I would encourage her to ignore strangers walking past rather than sniff them. I had/have the same problem that my dog wanted to say hello but then it all got too much when people acted like people and tried to make a fuss of him. So he got distracted and rewarded for walking past them, or sitting while they walked past. Then he started meeting a few selected people who had been told beforehand what to do (just stand, let him sniff, then I called him away, then I would invite him to go back with a specific command and they could stroke him under the chin.) If I didn't trust the person to do as they were told then they didn't meet him.
I didn't want my dog to sniff people without permission because unfortunately people do then just go in and make a fuss, and that would scare him. So I taught him that people are boring, mum is more interesting and if she says one person is safe THEN i can go and say hi. It has worked beautifully for him, it keeps him safe, and he can be his friendly self with people who I know won't stress him.
Remember if you teach him to sniff people/encourage him to sniff people then one day you will meet someone who is scared of dogs or doesn't want to be sniffed, and you can't guarantee how they will act. I think it is safer for my dog to ignore everyone unless I give him the ok. Who cares if people think he is antisocial, it keeps him safe and alive and that is my job.
I have to say that it has taken a while (with a lot of other issues) but he now copes with most people in most circumstances. And the bet bit is if he feels uncomfortable (like he did today with a tall man) then he looks for me and I can recall him away, or he simply moves himself away and comes back to me. (He is deaf so harder for me to call him away, would be easier for you in that respect if you have a good recall!).
I didn't want my dog to sniff people without permission because unfortunately people do then just go in and make a fuss, and that would scare him. So I taught him that people are boring, mum is more interesting and if she says one person is safe THEN i can go and say hi. It has worked beautifully for him, it keeps him safe, and he can be his friendly self with people who I know won't stress him.
Remember if you teach him to sniff people/encourage him to sniff people then one day you will meet someone who is scared of dogs or doesn't want to be sniffed, and you can't guarantee how they will act. I think it is safer for my dog to ignore everyone unless I give him the ok. Who cares if people think he is antisocial, it keeps him safe and alive and that is my job.
I have to say that it has taken a while (with a lot of other issues) but he now copes with most people in most circumstances. And the bet bit is if he feels uncomfortable (like he did today with a tall man) then he looks for me and I can recall him away, or he simply moves himself away and comes back to me. (He is deaf so harder for me to call him away, would be easier for you in that respect if you have a good recall!).
I would say don't allow sniffing on leash yet as well. It took lots of work to condition my dog to not pay attention to people on walks so that he would be at ease when they walked by, and eventually comfortable and even relaxed when approached by people for stroking (on side or chin, not top of head). For your foster: When she can have people walk past with her being able to ignore then, then you can build up to having her sniff people, but only with the other person's cooperation and knowledge. I know my dog has a tendency to look at people and sniff their hands which are dangling to their sides, and that can make people uncomfortable. (Although it's much better than it used to be, with him lunging toward them!) Teaching her "leave it" and rewarding her for looking at you in those instances would help. I believe that is part of what Horace's Mum means when she says mum is more exciting than people walking by.
Meanwhile, at home there are a couple of things you can do to keep everyone safe:
1. Keep her in another room behind a baby gate away from the door and only let her greet guests if she's calm/quiet/sitting whatever criteria you set. And at that point keep the guests behind the gate and let them engage with the gate between them.
2. Behind baby gate, with guests ignoring so she gets used to having people around without the stress of having to interact. Maybe have guests toss high-value treats behind her so she has to run back to get the treats then return to the doorway (still behind baby gate), to help associate guests with yummies.
3. When you make her sit-stay when answering the door, how does that go? Is it like this - open door, dog breaks sit and charges toward guest, guest continues to walk in and then you all deal with it? Because you could try this instead - open door, dog breaks sit, CLOSE DOOR IMMEDIATELY, guest stays outside, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, until dog doesn't break the sit.
I'm sure others will have more input or correct me if I'm wrong. I still have issues with my dog freaking out when people come over and we're not as diligent as we should be about desensitizing him, having people come over more often and whatnot, but we do manage the situation by putting him in another room behind a baby gate and he doesn't come out until he's quiet, which works for the time being.
Meanwhile, at home there are a couple of things you can do to keep everyone safe:
1. Keep her in another room behind a baby gate away from the door and only let her greet guests if she's calm/quiet/sitting whatever criteria you set. And at that point keep the guests behind the gate and let them engage with the gate between them.
2. Behind baby gate, with guests ignoring so she gets used to having people around without the stress of having to interact. Maybe have guests toss high-value treats behind her so she has to run back to get the treats then return to the doorway (still behind baby gate), to help associate guests with yummies.
3. When you make her sit-stay when answering the door, how does that go? Is it like this - open door, dog breaks sit and charges toward guest, guest continues to walk in and then you all deal with it? Because you could try this instead - open door, dog breaks sit, CLOSE DOOR IMMEDIATELY, guest stays outside, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, until dog doesn't break the sit.
I'm sure others will have more input or correct me if I'm wrong. I still have issues with my dog freaking out when people come over and we're not as diligent as we should be about desensitizing him, having people come over more often and whatnot, but we do manage the situation by putting him in another room behind a baby gate and he doesn't come out until he's quiet, which works for the time being.
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Bumble's mom
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:22 pm
- Location: Texas
Like horace's mum, I have a deaf adopted dog with aggression issues from prior mistreatment. The thing that saves our bacon is Bumble is tiny, and so more manageable when he has an episode. He is also epileptic, so stress reduction is hugely important.
I have been very careful who Bumble gets to meet. He has mellowed considerably in the 20 months he's been with me, but can still be unpredictable with strangers, especially at home. He actually does better with strangers outside; in the house he is very territorial and protective of his sister.
People who come over have strict instructions to ignore him completely and under no circumstances are they allowed to touch him. Sometimes he'll approach them and sniff at ankles, and if he wishes to be acknowledged, he'll headbutt their ankles or fuss out loud. Bottom line, it's more about his comfort zone than theirs. I have found that if you tell people your dog is a rescue with abuse in his background, ie, that he's in rehab, they cooperate better.
I would not encourage him to approach people outside. If he wants to, and it's someone you trust to cooperate, then ok. But strangers...maintain some distance for his sake and theirs. In the house, I might start by having trusted guests offer treats - maybe put the treat near the guest's feet so that he associates treat with guest. But don't ask him to approach people unless he's calm...you might watch the episode of IMOTD with Bumble the English Sheepdog...some good tricks there. (and no, that's not my bumble)
Good luck!
I have been very careful who Bumble gets to meet. He has mellowed considerably in the 20 months he's been with me, but can still be unpredictable with strangers, especially at home. He actually does better with strangers outside; in the house he is very territorial and protective of his sister.
People who come over have strict instructions to ignore him completely and under no circumstances are they allowed to touch him. Sometimes he'll approach them and sniff at ankles, and if he wishes to be acknowledged, he'll headbutt their ankles or fuss out loud. Bottom line, it's more about his comfort zone than theirs. I have found that if you tell people your dog is a rescue with abuse in his background, ie, that he's in rehab, they cooperate better.
I would not encourage him to approach people outside. If he wants to, and it's someone you trust to cooperate, then ok. But strangers...maintain some distance for his sake and theirs. In the house, I might start by having trusted guests offer treats - maybe put the treat near the guest's feet so that he associates treat with guest. But don't ask him to approach people unless he's calm...you might watch the episode of IMOTD with Bumble the English Sheepdog...some good tricks there. (and no, that's not my bumble)
Good luck!
Shannon L. Hill
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Smillin'Sammy
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:30 pm
Yeah, people on the street aren't going to help, they are going to make it worse if you try to introduce someone. It's best to give someone instructions before petting the dog, like "Yes, you may, but if I tell you to stop you need to." And make sure they agree before allowing them to pet. If you really need to get someone to back off, simply say "Oh, he's getting agressive now. Hope he doesn't try to bite like last time!" I actually don't recommend doing this often, but if you really need to get a message across this seems to be the only way sometimes 
. People who don't listen to the owners of the dog really annoy me. They are being selfish and not considering what the owner thinks is best for the dog (which is likely the best thing for the dog), and instead fulfilling their own desires at the expense of the dog.
. People who don't listen to the owners of the dog really annoy me. They are being selfish and not considering what the owner thinks is best for the dog (which is likely the best thing for the dog), and instead fulfilling their own desires at the expense of the dog.
I would recommend you reading Horace's mum's original thread from when she first joined, it will give you a good insite to how to give a nervous/frightened dog confidence. Horace is now doing well at agility.
In order to sort out problems you need to understand what happens in a dog's brain, when they are nervous like this their brain shuts down apart from a part at the front that deals with fight or flight. On a lead a dog can't run away so they fight which is why so many dogs are fear aggressive to other dogs on a lead.
In the house they can get away and they really need somewhere safe for them to go to. Often crates are good for this especially if they are covered. While the dog is in the crate nobody goes near him, that is his safe spot to escape from us humans. Can't say I blame dogs for wanted to escape from some humans
At the moment you are trying too hard with him, you want him right but that takes time so you need to back off from other people as the above posts have said. Dog/baby gates are very good for keeping dogs away from situations, the dog can still see what is going on and learns that there is nothing to fear in a safe environment.
Trying to get him to sniff people is asking too much of him at the moment, this is putting a lot of unnecessary stress on him and can make him worse not better, especially as some people think they know your dog better than you do.
Your dog is quite new to you, he hasn't learnt to trust you completely yet, for abused dogs this can take years, it took my Greyhound 3 years to trust completely even though he knew he was safe. You dog needs to go at his pace, you will know when he is ready to move forward because he will do it without your help.
Learn to watch his body language, there are quite a lot of posts about body language, this is the easiest way of reading and understanding what your dog is telling you. Being able to understand your dog will go a long way to him gaining confidence.
Ask as many questions as you want, that is what we are here for, sometimes our dogs have set backs and it helps when you can talk about them with people who have been there and understand. Please stay with us and let us know how you are getting on.
In order to sort out problems you need to understand what happens in a dog's brain, when they are nervous like this their brain shuts down apart from a part at the front that deals with fight or flight. On a lead a dog can't run away so they fight which is why so many dogs are fear aggressive to other dogs on a lead.
In the house they can get away and they really need somewhere safe for them to go to. Often crates are good for this especially if they are covered. While the dog is in the crate nobody goes near him, that is his safe spot to escape from us humans. Can't say I blame dogs for wanted to escape from some humans
At the moment you are trying too hard with him, you want him right but that takes time so you need to back off from other people as the above posts have said. Dog/baby gates are very good for keeping dogs away from situations, the dog can still see what is going on and learns that there is nothing to fear in a safe environment.
Trying to get him to sniff people is asking too much of him at the moment, this is putting a lot of unnecessary stress on him and can make him worse not better, especially as some people think they know your dog better than you do.
Your dog is quite new to you, he hasn't learnt to trust you completely yet, for abused dogs this can take years, it took my Greyhound 3 years to trust completely even though he knew he was safe. You dog needs to go at his pace, you will know when he is ready to move forward because he will do it without your help.
Learn to watch his body language, there are quite a lot of posts about body language, this is the easiest way of reading and understanding what your dog is telling you. Being able to understand your dog will go a long way to him gaining confidence.
Ask as many questions as you want, that is what we are here for, sometimes our dogs have set backs and it helps when you can talk about them with people who have been there and understand. Please stay with us and let us know how you are getting on.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
Ah, German shepherds, my favorite breed. The big problem with a possibly abused GSD is that their instinct and their negative experience is working in conflict. It makes them tense to shut them away from the household guest activity yet they are tense around the visitors.
As already written, it's better for her to just walk on by strangers rather than letting her sniff, but there's a caveat to that. If you can set up encounters where you stop to casually talk and laugh with a "stranger" (meaning a friend recruited to help) during a walk it's OK for her to be on a loose lead and check them out because that "stranger" won't touch her. She gets a view of a non-threatening, positive encounter. If you keep meeting the same "strangers," she'll eventually progress beyond sniffing to tail wagging and wanting to be greeted and petted. Keep an eye out for those positive signs. Because of the unfortunate, numerous incidents of poisoning, I'm not jazzed about allowing "strangers" to throw treats in her direction out on the street, but you'll need to weigh the positive v. negative on that one.
Her behavior at the door is not really different than a non-fearful dog. Noobs' suggestion #3 is a perfect example of how to deal with that. The GSD is a very, very intelligent breed and when you are working through issues, you must be careful about who's fooling who. They are very adept at mind games and the "poor, abused dog" needs boundaries just like any other dog or they'll quickly become the poster dog for "give them an inch and they'll take a mile."
Work on your positive obedience training in and out of the house. Another thing to do is recruit those "strangers" you meet on a walk and have them walk along with you straight into your house and expect her good outside manners to carry on inside.
I hope I've helped a little. I've worked with hundreds of GSDs with various issues and can get in touch with more knowledgeable GSD people if I don't know what to do.
As already written, it's better for her to just walk on by strangers rather than letting her sniff, but there's a caveat to that. If you can set up encounters where you stop to casually talk and laugh with a "stranger" (meaning a friend recruited to help) during a walk it's OK for her to be on a loose lead and check them out because that "stranger" won't touch her. She gets a view of a non-threatening, positive encounter. If you keep meeting the same "strangers," she'll eventually progress beyond sniffing to tail wagging and wanting to be greeted and petted. Keep an eye out for those positive signs. Because of the unfortunate, numerous incidents of poisoning, I'm not jazzed about allowing "strangers" to throw treats in her direction out on the street, but you'll need to weigh the positive v. negative on that one.
Her behavior at the door is not really different than a non-fearful dog. Noobs' suggestion #3 is a perfect example of how to deal with that. The GSD is a very, very intelligent breed and when you are working through issues, you must be careful about who's fooling who. They are very adept at mind games and the "poor, abused dog" needs boundaries just like any other dog or they'll quickly become the poster dog for "give them an inch and they'll take a mile."
Work on your positive obedience training in and out of the house. Another thing to do is recruit those "strangers" you meet on a walk and have them walk along with you straight into your house and expect her good outside manners to carry on inside.
I hope I've helped a little. I've worked with hundreds of GSDs with various issues and can get in touch with more knowledgeable GSD people if I don't know what to do.
German Shepherds are not well known for their tendencies to greet strangers. It's been my experience that they naturally tend to be a little aloof. That being said they are not a breed that enjoys strangers trying to smother them like a lab or golden who typically thrive on human contact and ask for more and more.
People on the street in my experience are not very bright when it comes to meeting strange dogs. I am very very slow to allow my dogs to greet strangers on the street...even with my trained therapy dog. Fortunately most people we pass more less say nice dog, cute dog, what kind of dog is that and move on. At the dog park its a bit different and my dogs all have good greeting manners (no jumping, no licking).
All but 2 of the GSD's I have met have been more focused on work and play with their owner's than on meeting everyone in the park. They are not rude, but just not interested. If you move towards them, they move elsewhere...as mentioned above aloof.
They are a working breed. They need a job or activity to keep them occupied. Flyball, Frisbee, agility, dock diving ar only a few activities you can get involved with to help meet your dog's need for work as well as build confidence. Agility especially as I have seen from personal experience with my dog Khan.
People on the street in my experience are not very bright when it comes to meeting strange dogs. I am very very slow to allow my dogs to greet strangers on the street...even with my trained therapy dog. Fortunately most people we pass more less say nice dog, cute dog, what kind of dog is that and move on. At the dog park its a bit different and my dogs all have good greeting manners (no jumping, no licking).
All but 2 of the GSD's I have met have been more focused on work and play with their owner's than on meeting everyone in the park. They are not rude, but just not interested. If you move towards them, they move elsewhere...as mentioned above aloof.
They are a working breed. They need a job or activity to keep them occupied. Flyball, Frisbee, agility, dock diving ar only a few activities you can get involved with to help meet your dog's need for work as well as build confidence. Agility especially as I have seen from personal experience with my dog Khan.
Actually, most of the GSD's I've owned and/or worked with over the past 35 years are pretty gregarious. With a few exceptions, they enjoy meeting people but, as you said, they don't care to be smothered and are more focused on their owner and their work.ckranz wrote:German Shepherds are not well known for their tendencies to greet strangers. It's been my experience that they naturally tend to be a little aloof. That being said they are not a breed that enjoys strangers trying to smother them like a lab or golden who typically thrive on human contact and ask for more and more.
People on the street in my experience are not very bright when it comes to meeting strange dogs. I am very very slow to allow my dogs to greet strangers on the street...even with my trained therapy dog. Fortunately most people we pass more less say nice dog, cute dog, what kind of dog is that and move on. At the dog park its a bit different and my dogs all have good greeting manners (no jumping, no licking).
All but 2 of the GSD's I have met have been more focused on work and play with their owner's than on meeting everyone in the park. They are not rude, but just not interested. If you move towards them, they move elsewhere...as mentioned above aloof.
They are a working breed. They need a job or activity to keep them occupied. Flyball, Frisbee, agility, dock diving ar only a few activities you can get involved with to help meet your dog's need for work as well as build confidence. Agility especially as I have seen from personal experience with my dog Khan.
Agility and tracking are great ways to keep a GSD busy. No high-flying Frisbee games though --- they are prone to back injuries.
Thanks for the help
I just wanted to thank everyone for the suggestions. I did want to clarify one point though. I don't encourage or force her to greet strangers especially on the street however the trainer I work with suggested that any positive reaction towards greeting was something to encourage and she mentioned this. In most cases now, Amara (my dog) can walk within inches of a stranger and have little to no reaction unless you are a strange squirrel and then you had best climb a tree very fast. The only time she has a reaction is:
a) person does some unexpected fast movement and the reaction is pretty much just a "wow what just happened" freeze and move away.
b) person is smoothering her and she barks or rarely growls (usually inside like at lifeskills class for reactive dogs when someone walks too close) to say "Hey. Enough I don't know you and you are pushing the limits. Go away."
At home I don't want to make her be friendly to anyone either. Being a bit shy as a kid myself I know how a room full of people can be scar, but I want to be able to help her be "okay" with people around. If she wants to greet them, then that is up to her. There are people that come over to my house that I don't always want to be friendly to..
I was told that she does not like crates and they cause additional stress for her. I might however borrow a crate from my brother or a friend and see if maybe giving her a place to retreat to might make her more comfortable.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
a) person does some unexpected fast movement and the reaction is pretty much just a "wow what just happened" freeze and move away.
b) person is smoothering her and she barks or rarely growls (usually inside like at lifeskills class for reactive dogs when someone walks too close) to say "Hey. Enough I don't know you and you are pushing the limits. Go away."
At home I don't want to make her be friendly to anyone either. Being a bit shy as a kid myself I know how a room full of people can be scar, but I want to be able to help her be "okay" with people around. If she wants to greet them, then that is up to her. There are people that come over to my house that I don't always want to be friendly to..
I was told that she does not like crates and they cause additional stress for her. I might however borrow a crate from my brother or a friend and see if maybe giving her a place to retreat to might make her more comfortable.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
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Bumble's mom
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:22 pm
- Location: Texas
My little boy CANNOT be crated...he will literally hurt himself trying to get out. It took over a year before I could put him in a room without me and close the door even for a little while without him screaming (not barking, literally screaming). Now, at my mom's house, he will accept being babygated off in one area with my other dog and my mom's two little dogs. (Maybe because the other three are okay with it?)
But even in the kennel at the vet's , they make special arrangements if he has to have a procedure - like when we cleaned his teeth. He was first to be anesthetized, so he wouldn't work up to hysterics, and they called me the instant he woke up, so I could get there before he went bonkers. And even so, by the time I could get there, I could hear him all the way in the parking lot, just wailing. The second he saw me, he stopped, like someone hit a switch. Since he is epileptic, stress management is a big deal, and we do everything we can to keep him calm and happy.
If you've been told your GSD doesn't like crates, I'd just put a crate with no door someplace in the house where she can decide for herself how she wants to handle it...she may take to it, or she may not. My little boy's safe place is in his Elmo bed under the desk in my bedroom. And that bed was there for 6 months before he chose to acknowledge it. Now he loves it. Go figure!
But even in the kennel at the vet's , they make special arrangements if he has to have a procedure - like when we cleaned his teeth. He was first to be anesthetized, so he wouldn't work up to hysterics, and they called me the instant he woke up, so I could get there before he went bonkers. And even so, by the time I could get there, I could hear him all the way in the parking lot, just wailing. The second he saw me, he stopped, like someone hit a switch. Since he is epileptic, stress management is a big deal, and we do everything we can to keep him calm and happy.
If you've been told your GSD doesn't like crates, I'd just put a crate with no door someplace in the house where she can decide for herself how she wants to handle it...she may take to it, or she may not. My little boy's safe place is in his Elmo bed under the desk in my bedroom. And that bed was there for 6 months before he chose to acknowledge it. Now he loves it. Go figure!
Shannon L. Hill
