Collie's nonstop barking

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jen5972
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Collie's nonstop barking

Post by jen5972 »

I have a 6 year old female rough Collie. She is a wonderful dog, except for her incessant barking. We lived in the country on 4 acres when we first got her, and lived there for the first 3 years of her life. She barked a lot then, but we were pretty far out, so there wasn't a whole lot for her to bark at. Two and a half years ago, we moved into a subdivision, and the barking has gotten absolutely horrible. We tried everything. Clickers, citronella collars (she would just bark nonstop as they sprayed her), shock collars (she would bark, get shocked, bark, get shocked...didn't phase her a bit), spraying her with water, making her come to us every time she barked (and we made her sit). You name it, we tried it. Her bark was very loud, to the point where the neighbors were complaining. We live in a busy wooded subdivision with lots of activity. She barks whenever anyone walks by, whenever she sees a dog, whenever she sees a bunny or squirrel, or even if a bird just flies in the yard. She also barks at almost any noise she hears that is outside. She has even barked at leaves blowing in the yard! We finally got to the point where we were either going to have to get rid of her because of the neighbors getting upset, or get her surgically de-barked. We didn't want to get rid of her, so we had her de-barked. That was almost 2 years ago. The de-barking helped the volume of her barking, so that it is not the "peel youself off the ceiling after she barks" loud. Unfortunately, she still barks all the time. If I were to guess how much she barked today, I would say about every 5-10 minutes. That is normal for her. We walk her for at least 45 minutes every day, and it doesn't curb the barking at all. I'm at my wits end with this dog. She wakes us up at night by barking at stuff. I love her, but I'm not sure how much more of this barking I can take.
jen5972
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Post by jen5972 »

I forgot to mention that she is an indoor dog. We don't let her stay outside at all unless she is with us. Otherwise she will bark without stopping. She only goes outside to go potty, to go for walks, or go out when we are out (which is several times through the day).
Smillin'Sammy
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Post by Smillin'Sammy »

Wow. Collies are a very vocal breed. I usually oppose citronella collars and shock collars, but I think in this case their use was slightly justified if the barking was truely terrible.

My suggestion is to get some noise cancelling headphones for your dog. JK. But really, you may want to consider getting her a noise-canceling crate if she is triggered to bark by audio cues, close the blinds if visual cues, spray freshener if by smell cues.

Really, though. The moment she pauses in her barking 1 and 1/2 second pause, treat her and say good girl. If she continues barking, ignore her until a 1 1/2 second pause. Continue. During the times she ignores a usual bark stimuli, TREAT HER. And tell her good girl. This is important, dogs are rarely treated for good behavior, so don't pass up a chance.

Finally, try to find a good trainer in your area. Explain the problem and ask if he/she can help or reccomend a person who can.
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Mattie
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Re: Collie's nonstop barking

Post by Mattie »

jen5972 wrote:I have a 6 year old female rough Collie. She is a wonderful dog, except for her incessant barking. We lived in the country on 4 acres when we first got her, and lived there for the first 3 years of her life. She barked a lot then, but we were pretty far out, so there wasn't a whole lot for her to bark at.
What a pity you didn't tackle the barking when you first got her, unfortunately when there isn't a need we don't think to do this.

Two and a half years ago, we moved into a subdivision, and the barking has gotten absolutely horrible. We tried everything. Clickers, citronella collars (she would just bark nonstop as they sprayed her), shock collars (she would bark, get shocked, bark, get shocked...didn't phase her a bit), spraying her with water, making her come to us every time she barked (and we made her sit).
Aversions like the cittronella collars, shock collars, water sprays never work, they just suppress the behaviour and it will come out again and as you are finding, it is getting harder and harder to stop. Citronella collars are the worse, the citronella stings their noses and eyes and it lingers round them for quite some time after the dog has been spayed. You don't doesn't know why you were using all these things because you hadn't done any training to stop her.
You name it, we tried it. Her bark was very loud, to the point where the neighbors were complaining.
No you haven't tried everything, all you have done is tried all the punishment you could find but as she has never been taught not to bark, they won't work.
We live in a busy wooded subdivision with lots of activity. She barks whenever anyone walks by, whenever she sees a dog, whenever she sees a bunny or squirrel, or even if a bird just flies in the yard. She also barks at almost any noise she hears that is outside. She has even barked at leaves blowing in the yard! We finally got to the point where we were either going to have to get rid of her because of the neighbors getting upset, or get her surgically de-barked. We didn't want to get rid of her, so we had her de-barked. That was almost 2 years ago. The de-barking helped the volume of her barking, so that it is not the "peel youself off the ceiling after she barks" loud. Unfortunately, she still barks all the time. If I were to guess how much she barked today, I would say about every 5-10 minutes. That is normal for her. We walk her for at least 45 minutes every day, and it doesn't curb the barking at all. I'm at my wits end with this dog. She wakes us up at night by barking at stuff. I love her, but I'm not sure how much more of this barking I can take.
She is a Collie, a very active breed of dog and also a dog known for doing a lot of barking, you allowed her to get like this then punished her instead of training, this is going to make the training a lot more difficult for you but you own it to her to do this after what she has been h rough, then the debarking at the end.

This isn't about you but about your dog, you may be at your wits end but your dog has been at her wits end for years and you have ignored it. This may sound harsh but in fairness to your dog I can't put it another way.

45 minutes a day exercise is not nearly enough for her, she needs 2 to 3 hours a day as well as mental exercise which she hasn't been getting. There is a thread at the top of this section with mind games for dogs, do them with her, it will tire her brain out and up the physical exercise. Once she is getting enough physical and mental exercise you can then start to train her not to bark.

You need to teach her to stop barking on command, Victoria had a good way in one of her programs, she put her hands in front of her then swung them fast to each side at the same time giving the command, I use "Enough". It worked for my barker which I had been having problems stopping on command and now I only have to say the word.

Once she has stopped barking, you then reward her for this, you can use a clicker to mark this but I don't. Once she has been rewarded, give her something to do, a short training session will do, it will take her mind off what she was barking at.

If she can see people/dogs/animals she will continue to bark, you also need to block her sight to these. A cheap way to block a dog's sight like this is to put binbag lines along the fence so the dog can't see through it. A proper fence will be better but not everyone can do that.

Teach her to "Watch Me", this i very helpful in many situations including if you see someone approaching you can get her attention before she sees them so and hold it until they have gone past.

Smillin'Sammy nothing justifys using punishment to cure problems, only training a dog will stop unwanted behaviours. Think of it this way, you move to a foreign country and don't speak the language, how would you communicate with the people? How would you feel if you were punished every time you didn't understand what was being said? It is the same for dogs, if we don't teach them what we want it is impossible for them to know.
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jen5972
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Post by jen5972 »

Mattie said, "This isn't about you but about your dog, you may be at your wits end but your dog has been at her wits end for years and you have ignored it. This may sound harsh but in fairness to your dog I can't put it another way."
Okay, I don't agree with this at all. I have talked to several Collie experts on this one. These are people who train Collies, sell Collies and own them. Collie's ENJOY barking. It is not about stress. She isn't stressed when she does it. She LOVES it! She is not at her wits end. She is having tons of fun when she does it. If you saw her face while she barked, and saw how she reacted, you would see that it is just way too fun for her. She bounces around and acts the same as when we play frisbee with her. To her it is her form of playtime. She is not at all at her wits end.
Mattie said: "45 minutes a day exercise is not nearly enough for her, she needs 2 to 3 hours a day as well as mental exercise which she hasn't been getting. There is a thread at the top of this section with mind games for dogs, do them with her, it will tire her brain out and up the physical exercise. Once she is getting enough physical and mental exercise you can then start to train her not to bark."[quote)

No offense here, but 2-3 hours PLUS mental exercise??? So basically 4 hours or more a day?? I am a homeschool mom. I don't have 4 hours to spend on my dog every day. I don't know of a single person who works that much with their dog every day. That isn't even realistic.

I am not cruel to my dog. I talked to trainer after trainer on the phone, and used the advice they gave. You made it sound like I was cruel and mean to her. I did what I was advised to do by people who were supposed to be the best in our area.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

jen5972 wrote:I am not cruel to my dog. I talked to trainer after trainer on the phone, and used the advice they gave. You made it sound like I was cruel and mean to her. I did what I was advised to do by people who were supposed to be the best in our area.
I never said you were deliberately cruel to her, unfortunately there are a lot of trainers who haven't a clue how a dog learns and recommend things like spray and shock collars etc. Yes dogs learn with these, they learn to suppress the behaviour or in your dog's case, to ignore it. In the case of the shock collar, Rough Collies have thick coats, unless you clip this away from her neck the prongs that give the shock won't get to her skin so she wouldn't be getting a shock from the collar. Citronella collars are cruel, the citronella stings a dog's eyes and nose and it continues to sting for some time. Many dogs learn to work through these by various means.


Mattie said, "This isn't about you but about your dog, you may be at your wits end but your dog has been at her wits end for years and you have ignored it. This may sound harsh but in fairness to your dog I can't put it another way."
Okay, I don't agree with this at all. I have talked to several Collie experts on this one. These are people who train Collies, sell Collies and own them. Collie's ENJOY barking. It is not about stress. She isn't stressed when she does it. She LOVES it! She is not at her wits end. She is having tons of fun when she does it. If you saw her face while she barked, and saw how she reacted, you would see that it is just way too fun for her. She bounces around and acts the same as when we play frisbee with her. To her it is her form of playtime. She is not at all at her wits end.


Of course you don't agree, but it is about the dog and not you, it is the dog that has had various collars on and been debarked instead of been trained.

What is the rest of her body doing when she is barking? It isn't just about a dog's face, it is all the body. What can look like enjoyment to use can be the oposite, had several dogs that were like this when they first came and suffered from people who thought they could train dogs. What you see is often not what is goning on with your dog.
Mattie said: "45 minutes a day exercise is not nearly enough for her, she needs 2 to 3 hours a day as well as mental exercise which she hasn't been getting. There is a thread at the top of this section with mind games for dogs, do them with her, it will tire her brain out and up the physical exercise. Once she is getting enough physical and mental exercise you can then start to train her not to bark."[quote)

No offense here, but 2-3 hours PLUS mental exercise??? So basically 4 hours or more a day?? I am a homeschool mom. I don't have 4 hours to spend on my dog every day. I don't know of a single person who works that much with their dog every day. That isn't even realistic.
It is realistic to some people, as mental exercise makes a dog tire quicker some of the physical exercise can be changed to mental exercise. Also if you put up an obstacle course and work her over that, this will tire her a lot quicker than letting her run for an hour. She has to use her brain as well with this. Training sessions can also tire her quicker. I don't know how old your children are but they can also help, children often like to teach dogs trick like shake hands, 5 high, roll over etc, again this will help and develop a bond with your children.

There is always a way round things if you start to think outside the box, there is always another way to give our dogs what they need and should have. We took our dogs on, we should make sure they get what they need.

I have mobility problems but by changing the type of exercise daily to how my mobility is, I can still keep my dogs exercised. Fetching a ball or frisby most dogs enjoy, scattering their dry food in the grass and let them hunt for it is another way. Teaching a dog to help round the house, fetching name items, loading and unloading the washing machine etc will all help your dog and give her reasons not to bark.
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Cracker
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Post by Cracker »

I won't get into the discussion of what you have done or didn't do previously as that has been covered.
What I do recommend, like Mattie, is more exercise..physical and/or mental.
I also HIGHLY recommend the book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. You mentioned you tried clicker training before so I'm going to assume you have a bit of knowledge about how it works. The book is geared towards agility competition and dogs that go CRAZY in these situations but it is very helpful to learn the exercises about how to calm your dog, whether it is fear, excitement or sheer joy at doing whatever the behaviour is...It's about building impulse control and redirecting the excitement/anxiety into a different behaviour.
I don't do agility, instead I use some of the exercises for reactivity in the dogs I work with..but they are very helpful.
This is a training issue, and unfortunately it takes time, patience and work to train a dog to NOT do something it really enjoys...so you need to find something else, just as valuable to your girl, to replace the barking.

Good luck.
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Fundog
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Post by Fundog »

My Annie is a spaniel/lab cross. She seldom barks, but when she does, it is always for a reason. One of those reasons is boredom. Annie is a very intelligent dog, and needs to be kept busy.

Collies are very similar. Having a reputation for being intelligent, energetic, and eager to work, they need to have a "job" to do, something to keep them busy. This could be one of the reasons she barks: not necessarily because it is a game to her, but because she is telling you she wants to play a game.

When Annie is bored, and I've already played with her, or I don't have time, I try to find her something to do to keep her "busy" for a few minutes. She loves the "Find it!" game, where I hide treats around for her to seek out, using her nose, police dog style. Over in the exercise section, there are some more ideas, including ideas for stuffing Kongs and making popsicles for your dog. There are a lot of other ideas over there for "busy" toys and projects for our dogs to do, to keep them occupied.
Smillin'Sammy
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Re: Collie's nonstop barking

Post by Smillin'Sammy »

Mattie wrote:
jen5972 wrote: Smillin'Sammy nothing justifys using punishment to cure problems, only training a dog will stop unwanted behaviours. Think of it this way, you move to a foreign country and don't speak the language, how would you communicate with the people? How would you feel if you were punished every time you didn't understand what was being said? It is the same for dogs, if we don't teach them what we want it is impossible for them to know.
You are correct. I am sorry, I was not being full clear. What I should have said was I could understand why she did that.

She should have known that both collars would not stop he behavior, only discourage it for a short period of time. Training and excercise may help, along with more games (shell game is great).

However, my earlier advice stands. I would love if you could observe and tell us wether she barks at things she hears or things she sees. This can really help train the behavior.

Also understanding why she barks is crucial. Is she trying to protect her yard? Is she enjoying it? Is she bored? Figure out the root of the problem so you can modify the behavior. It's not as easy as fixing barking.

Good luck!
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Unfortunately there are many so called trainers and behaviourists who recommend these collars to dog owners, as they have these titles the owners think they know what they are talking about and put them on their dogs :cry: From what the OP has said I suspect this may be the case. It will be interesting to know if the OP was told not to put it over her dog's thick coat.

Unfortunately many never find this or any other good forums until they are desperate, which is a shame because it then takes longer to sort out.
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jen5972
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Post by jen5972 »

Thank you all for the suggestions so far. I think I have figured out some things to try. With homeschooling, I am just not able to do more than 45 minutes of walking a day with Sierra (our dog). It is harder because my one daughter gets really tired after a short time because she is so young, and she is too old for a stroller. We walk Sierra 2 miles a day, which is a long ways for my daughter. I am going to see about setting up an obstacle course in the backyard. I think it would be fun, and good exercise for Sierra.
Smillin'Sammy
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Post by Smillin'Sammy »

jen5972 wrote:Thank you all for the suggestions so far. I think I have figured out some things to try. With homeschooling, I am just not able to do more than 45 minutes of walking a day with Sierra (our dog). It is harder because my one daughter gets really tired after a short time because she is so young, and she is too old for a stroller. We walk Sierra 2 miles a day, which is a long ways for my daughter. I am going to see about setting up an obstacle course in the backyard. I think it would be fun, and good exercise for Sierra.
You bet! Get some agility trial equipment and train her. There are lots of places you can find information on how to teach your dog agility. She will really love it, most collies do, and who knows, maybe you have a champion! Good luck, I think that is a great idea, just remember to take it slow, she won't know how to do everything at first and teaching it too fast will overload her.

You can also find some agility training schools near you, likely. They can really help.
maximoo
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Post by maximoo »

You can make your own agility equipment with pvc pipes & other low-cost materials. A broom handle & two chairs works perfectly for jumping, as well as a $5 hula hoop. There are instructions on the net on how to build--just do a search 8)
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Children love building things to jump over or go under, get them involved as well if they can, it will help your children in many ways as well as your dog.

We can sound a but harsh on here but we tell the truth, to many forums pussyfoot around so the owner who is desperate doesn't really get what they need. It can be a shock because of how direct we are but if like you, they come through this, it changes your life with your dog for the better.

The priciples of training are the same no matter what you are teaching, they do have to be adepted to what you are teaching and who so what you have learnt teaching your children will help teaching your dog.

Please stay with us and let us know how you are getting on. :D
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Fundog
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Post by Fundog »

How old is your daughter? And how much does she weigh, approximately? I've had small children (they are big now), and I've homeschooled, so I might have some ideas for helping you manage your situation. As for homeschooling and the dog at the same time, look at it as though you still have a small toddler at home, whom you need to keep occupied while you do Kindergarten with the older sib. The dog is the toddler. When I was in those days, I had a special bookcase with age-appropriate puzzles and other educational toys. I sat my then one year old down with those puzzles, that he was only to do while I did kindergarten with his brother. That way he was having "school" too-- today, he is a math wizard, doing complicated algebraic equations in his head! But you can do the same with your dog: set her up with her own little games and activities/puzzles, busy toys, etc., to keep her occupied while you have school with the humans. You can also incorporate some of the training/playing with the dog into your curriculum-- call it Life Skills, or Animal Husbandry.

Also, if you bicycle, you may be able to get a bicycle seat for the child, and have the dog run along beside you-- that will tire her out way good!

Or, get a wagon, if she is not yet too heavy for you to pull. If you are very clever, you may be able to engineer a double harness so you and the dog can team-pull the wagon. That will help to tire out the dog faster, without harming her by putting too much weight on her.
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