Predation issues and questions

[ckranz]

Part of the difficulty between cats and dogs as the same behavior from either means entirely separate ideas.

Dogs...A paw across the face of another dog is typically an indication of "lets play."

Cats...A paw across the face means "go away"

A cat swatting a dog on the nose is typically telling the dog to go away, but is being read by the dog as lets play.

There are some new studies which indicate that dogs can learn to understand cat body language...a short article in the last issue of "The Bark".

I mention typically because in my house one of my cats a dogs will play with each other through a baby gate....The cat sits with his tail near the gate. Close enough one of my dogs can swat the tail with his paw. Of course his nose is now through the gate and the runs up and swats him on the nose (no claws). They keep this up for long periods of time and then stop.

Both seem excited about the game and when the gate is removed they are able to relax around each other so I am pretty sure it is a game they are playing with each other. (Perhaps I have a cat that learned to speak dog?)

Generally in stressfull situations many dogs become non-food motivated. (Stress here can be positive or negative). This means either ramping up on the treat quality, or toy/play motivation.

Some other things to look into would be activities like herding or agility which would help on training, exercise, and mind stimulation.

To help shorten the "Calming Period", stop playing. Immediately when your dog winds down, start playing again the stop suddenly. Play only begins when he is calm.

[zeus'fostermom]

I'm curious how you know if a behaviour is guarding vs predation vs the joy of chasing? I have recently adopted a Great Pyrenees, known for their guarding instincts. He has been quite reactive to other animals (squirrels, birds, cats) while in our yard so it made perfect sense that he was just guarding. But recently he started reacting to everything .. anything that moves, makes a sound or has a scent including the wind, cars, airplanes etc. He's also expanded this behaviour to parks and streets in my neighborhood. So I'm wondering if there is something more to this.

I've been working on desensitizing him with treats, getting his attention, saying "bird" (or whatever the object of his desire) and then treating him when he's calm. Most of the time this is pretty effective however with cars he is so out of control if I am able to get his attention he's totally stressed (drooling, bug eyed, etc).

Even if this is just a form of guarding I'd prefer he was protecting us from bears and wolves not squirrels and cars.

[dobiemuse]

I am curious as to what Nettle's method is as well. The mysterious nature of the post really added to my curiosity.

[kel]

hi again,

ckranz, thanks for that explanation of differences in cattalk and dogtalk, that solves a mystery: Maisie has been clocked on the nose more than a few times when making a play to play with the cats, and we couldn't understand why she would go right back, well, now we know; thanks also for the explanation of the relationship between stress and food motivation - Maisie is easily distracted from her food, even when she is hungry, at regular mealtimes. I've seen this with some children, too - the stimulation can be positive or negative - so a calmer household/mealtime might be helpful? I try to be very calm around her, the calming signals have worked wonders, but we do have the cats and of course people come and go, clients and visitors, etc.

Maisie has a lot of nervousness, so she is very dependent on her chew toys for calming and security, a bit like a pacifier, I think, so I don't hold those back as strictly rewards; we'll have to keep trying various food treats to see what she loves best

I think she would love agility training, but we are watching her legs right now - she had been dragged behind a vehicle by her owners, and this took the skin off the front of her back legs and damaged some muscle, and altho the vet couldn't find any obvious joint damage, Maisie sometimes has a little trouble keeping her footing, so we're giving her some more recovery time before a recheck at the vet (this leg situation wasn't helped by a period in a foster home where she was left alone for hours on end, day after day, in a too-small crate)

we've made great progress with chasing "not cats" in the house, and for "not cats" in the yard, we're doing well so far with the same "not this, but that" - as in, you can chase "not cats," but your stuffed squirrel, yes you can! and outdoors there is the bonus of a great game of fetch (doing really well with the "drop it" command, also, now)

when she first came we could hardly get her up off the ground from a completely immobile, submissive, fearful state, sometimes we'd just have to pick her up and carry her - so we're definitely making progress all round and it's great to see her so much happier and more relaxed - she wouldn't go up or down stairs or thro certain types of doors when she first came (we don't what's behind that) and now she's fine with both

thanks again everyone for the help and advice, it's so very much appreciated - Maisie will now rest/sleep beside me on the sofa whilst I hold and pet one of the older cats on my lap, and lets both the older cats sleep on "her" chair - ! one of the older cats I think really does understand the dogtalk pretty well and has been trying to help her adjust - he's a grand old boy.

I'm curious too about the differences between guarding, herding, and "playing" when it comes to dog predatory behaviours - I'm guessing that which breed you're dealing with is a big factor?

thanks again all,

kel

[Nettle]

If she's been dragged behind a car (aren't some people charming? ) she needs her spine checked out as well as soft tissue and I'm getting "pelvis" as I write - so in short a full skeletal check is important.

Guarding, herding and playing: forget "playing" because dogs in natural instinct mode are never playing, but deadly serious. "Play" in animals is dress-rehearsal for life, so baby predators play at stalking, chasing, pouncing and killing: baby prey species play at kicking, striking and running away.

Adults are not playing when they display these actions.

You are right in your assessment that different breeds display different variations on these behaviours: a Pyrenees will guard (patrol and check) a collie will herd (drive animals/children towards the handler for the handler to kill) a hound will travel away from the handler to find and tackle whatever.

[kel]

thanks Nettle,

we've checked in with the vet at the shelter several times, and she's assured us that physically all is well with Maisie, but it never hurts to get a second opinion and we plan to have her re-checked by our own vet after the new year holiday

thanks for the headsup in re the pelvis, I think I will start to write things down each time she loses her balance/footing making note of details, and take that in to our vet

point taken on the nature of "play" for young animals as training for adulthood, and the seriousness of adult animal behaviours

I've been reading up on the Hall's (naturally tailless, not docked) heeler as I was not familiar with the breed before we got Maisie, altho my own childhood dog was an english shepherd/collie mix, so I had some familiarity with the general nature of the shepherding dog

also making my way thro the Jean Donaldson videos in the body language sticky, very nice posting, btw, very helpful stuff

thanks again for your help and encouragement: as I type this I can look over and see Maisie sleeping peacefully on her chair - whilst in plain sight, one kitty's eating some kibble, another napping, and all is well - and am so happy she is safe here and learning to relax, and that our "cat problem" is already so vastly improved

thanks to all who participate here, btw, this a wonderful resource and help,

kel

[Mattie]

I think she would love agility training, but we are watching her legs right now - she had been dragged behind a vehicle by her owners, and this took the skin off the front of her back legs and damaged some muscle, and altho the vet couldn't find any obvious joint damage, Maisie sometimes has a little trouble keeping her footing, so we're giving her some more recovery time before a recheck at the vet (this leg situation wasn't helped by a period in a foster home where she was left alone for hours on end, day after day, in a too-small crate)

kel

One of mine was dragged under a vehicle when she was about 6 months old, both her back legs were broken and I suspect more damage was done. Her back legs have a very funny action now.

Bonnie is a Collie/Lab, more Collie and has their energy levels but she would never cope in a Collie home, her back legs wouldn't take it. She was a nightmare at first because of her energy levels, now she is a lovely dog.

Bonnie's energy levels would suit agility but her back legs wouldn't take it, so she will never do it. Heelwork to music or dancing willl help her and won't put the strain on her back legs or spine that agility would.

What may help your dog after you have her spine checked is hydrotherapy, this will build her muscles up without putting stress on her. Once her muscles have built up a bit she will find things a lot easier.

I have never seen Bonnie lie on a hard surface, I do have lots of beds round my house, many are just cheap pillows which are easy to replace but are just big enough for a Collie type to curl up on.

I am seeing signs that she may be starting to have problems with her back legs, especially as it is so cold at the moment, she doesn't seen in pain so am just watching her. She is only just 4 years old and I don't expect her to live to what she would have done without the accident.

Bonnie's was an accident it has left its mark, hopefully your dog will make a good recovery. For stress try TTouch, this does relax them