They are adopting out a dog who bit!!! Irresponsible rescue!

[Monkey]

I think my thread got a bit off topic and hijacked....................

[DoggoneGA]

"I think my thread got a bit off topic and hijacked"

Don't sweat it...happens all the time. Just go with the flow!

[Missymay]

The ear pinch is negative reinforcement. The pinch is not a consequence, the cessation of the pinch is. The cessation of the pinch serves to reinforce the behavior (taking it).

I avoid this quad.

As to your question, Nettle, I have a twofold answer.

First, I do believe witholding a reinforcer serves as a means of communication. My dogs get as much information from the absense of the click as they do from the click.

Second, the reinforcer you are providing or witholding does not have to be food. Sometimes, the reinforcer for not chasing is the chance to chase. Sometimes the reinforcer for not hunting is the chance to hunt.

The handler needs to control the consequences in a very refined manner to expect a dog whose instincts are to hunt/chase/herd to look to the handler for the cue to do so or to perform an alternate behavior.

Ever see those herding dogs drop to a moving down in the middle of some very intense herding? Pretty awesome.

Wendy, sadly the majority of gun dogs are taught with P+/R- (the quads that use aversives) and shock collars, but there is a genuine positive gun dog movement.

One of the speakers at this years clicker expo will be Steve White:

http://www.i2ik9.com/

And here is an exert from Positive Gun Dogs from Pryor's site:

http://www.clickertraining.com/files/Po ... er_One.pdf

The bastions of P+/R+ training are falling, one dog at a time.

[Missymay]

And a qute from an offleash, R+/P- trained gund doh owner friend of mine:

Go to a field trial for retrievers and watch the dogs being beaten and shocked in the contestants' parking area prior to the collar coming off and being taken to the line. It's all about the dog making the handler look good.

Old saying in Texas "if you want a bird dog just wait for hunting season and look along the side of the road."

Related to that are the hunters who take their dogs in the field wearing shock collars. What the hell, for a retriever that likes the water what is better in life than swimming around collecting ducks?! Talk about self-reinforcing behaviors, if you need to shock your dog in such a setting for any reason you better rethink what the hell you're doing.

The saddest thing is to see dogs that have been bred to do something and yet they have no joy in doing it. It's almost like the dog's spirit is broken just so it can be re-created in a mechanical/robotic way. I have never seen one of these dogs smile while in the field.

I realize, unlike the APDT, hunting training is the bastion of the shock collar trainer so I can imagine at a Rally or Agility event you just want to slap these people. Maybe there is a human-related use for a target stick

[WendyM]

Wendy, sadly the majority of gun dogs are taught with P+/R- (the quads that use aversives) and shock collars, but there is a genuine positive gun dog movement.

In trials and competitions yes but *not* actual fill the freezer for the winter hunters-- we're a totally different breed than sport hunters and gun dog owners that think looking good at a trial is the end all be all.

These dogs live, eat, sleep, play and work with our families all year round-- they are reared kindly and treated with respect. We'd no more strap a shock collar on our dogs than we would hit our horses with cattle prods or beat our children with sticks.

[Nettle]

As to your question, Nettle, I have a twofold answer.

First, I do believe witholding a reinforcer serves as a means of communication. My dogs get as much information from the absense of the click as they do from the click.

Second, the reinforcer you are providing or witholding does not have to be food. Sometimes, the reinforcer for not chasing is the chance to chase. Sometimes the reinforcer for not hunting is the chance to hunt.

The handler needs to control the consequences in a very refined manner to expect a dog whose instincts are to hunt/chase/herd to look to the handler for the cue to do so or to perform an alternate behavior.

Ever see those herding dogs drop to a moving down in the middle of some very intense herding? Pretty awesome.

Thank you for offering this, MissyMay . Here are my thoughts:

Herding dogs dropping down and creeping is still very much part of the herding behaviour, so not relevant to my discourse. Herding dogs work towards a handler: hunting dogs work away from one.

I assure you that the absence of a click means nothing to a driven dog entering its drive. Clicker training is excellent for many things, but crucial to it is being able to give the reward. I have already said that the dogs I deal with rarely respond to food, play, toys or even affection, and certainly not once drive is engaged. They are wonderful animals to live with, but their work consumes them once they enter that dimension.

How would you convince a dog that if it doesn't chase this now it might get a chance to chase that later? This is abstract thought. Dogs IMO live in the 'now' (I am happy to be disabused of this notion).

Hunting dogs, by which I mean hunting live quarry not those helping find game for someone to shoot and therefore having a natural pause in their behaviour, would not have a chance on their quarry if they had to engage their handler before going on it. The dog needs to know beforehand what is legitimate quarry and what is not. These dogs often work at a distance and sometimes out of sight - they must be 100% reliable.


Doggone, I totally agree that if drive isn't there, you cannot put it there, though sometimes you can ignite it if it is dormant. [/i]

[Missymay]

Nettle, I would teach the dog that not chasing that now means you can chese something when I release you. You need to start this in a controlled environment and the reinforcer does have to be immedieate.

So, the dog sees the squirrel and I am in the position to control the dog, I wait for the look, then release the dog to chase the squirrel, on lead if the area is unfenced, off lead if fenced and the squirrel has a safe escape.

Over time, (and practice and proofing), the dog learns to look to the trainer in drive mode.

And again, I don't know a lot about drive training, but they teach the dogs to redirect that drive to the trainer. The drive trainers I know have great success with it, and, like I said, they are doing it without the aversives.

It's all about training the dog to look to the trainer to release the drive, pushing that drive into the trainer.

In fact, one of the exercises is called pushing and it is teaching a dog to push into the handlers hand when in drive mode.

Sorry, I can't define it more precisely. I don't use it, but am interested in all forms of training.

[DoggoneGA]

"It's all about training the dog to look to the trainer to release the drive, pushing that drive into the trainer"

That would be of no use in the sighthound breeds. Sighthounds do not work towards, or "into" the trainer. In fact, you can't really "train" sighthounds to do their work. It's inbred in them. All you can really do is give them the opportunity to do it.

Once you have released them, they are out of your control. Bird dogs, herding dogs, draft dogs, police dogs - all of those work WITH their trainer/handler. Sighthounds and breeds like independent flock/herd guard dogs work FOR their owner - doing independently of human direction the jobs humans can't do for themselves.

They don't need to have their drive "released" by their handler. They just need to have their bodies released and their inate drive to do the work they are bred for will take over. Once you have released them you have relinquished all control and turned it over to the dog.

[Nettle]

Thanks Doggone, that is nicely put. And that is why ALL the steadiness training has to be in place before the dog ever works in the field. It cannot be put there afterwards.


It is a difficult concept to get across to people who have never seen it.

[DoggoneGA]

Thanks!

"It is a difficult concept to get across to people who have never seen it."

It is indeed...and that is why I'm not into intense levels of obedience training, and why I seldom to never give any sort of "must obey" command on the coursing field. I do not want my dogs constantly checking that I might command them to do something.

The only command I use on a regular basis is the recall command, and that only when the lure is not moving. But even then I have one or two I can't call off the lure, but THOSE will stay with it - which is no big deal, I can just go get them.

[Mattie]

"If he doesn't go into the prong collar like he goes into a flat collar then it must hurt him, if he didn't, it wouldn't make any difference. If you were pushing into something quite hard, then someone put something there that hurt when you pushed, you wouldn't push as hard either."

If hitting a buckle or training collar HARD enough to hurt ME doesn't bother him, why would a prong collar be worse? I will say I used the prong collar for the first time with a fair bit of trepidation because I did NOT want him hurt beyond his forebearance...what would be the point of making him associate pain with something that should be FUN? But he seemed not to even notice he was wearing it. I even tried giving him a light correction, just to see his reaction...there was none.

Of course there is a big difference in pressing into a buckle, especially those used these days and several prongs, buckles don't dig into the neck.

Also this is a forum for positive training, prong collars don't come into that. To me anyone who uses these are lazy trainers, they can't be bothered to put the work into the dog to stop the behaviour any other way.

At this point I'm quite willing to admit his reaction to it...or to be precise his LACK of reaction was entirely due to it's having a different "feel" around his neck. That doesn't necessarily mean discomfort, but even so it must be a different feeling. Which is why I will be interested to see if his reaction changes as he gets used to it. Though that might take a while because we don't go to many events and I will only be using it when he is going to be running.

Why not throw it away and teach him in a positive way?

"I said discomfort as well, an electric fence does cause quite a bit of discomfort which is why horses keep away from them."

Yes, but horses have much more sensitive skin than do dogs. In fact, I've known several dogs over the years who had long hair and learned they could get under an electric fence without being "zapped" because their hair blunted the zing.

You are missing the point, you brought up electric fences, they do cause a lot of discomfort, if they didn't the horse would ignore them. As to the hair blunting the zing, this would depend on what the dogs was doing at that time, if they were chasing, of course they wouldn't feel it.

" There are people who an electric fence does hurt, and in some cases can throw them a short distance."

Certainly. There are always going to be differences in sensitivity and in reaction, but if a normal electric fence is throwing ANYONE even a short distance then it is no longer NORMAL. Though, there ARE much stronger electric fences that are designed to both keep livestock in AND to burn the tips of growing plants to prevent them from grounding out the fence. But I did not have THOSE in mind as I do not consider them to be "normal" electric fences.

They are still electric fences, how are we supposed to know what you have in your mind?

"As you said in an earlier post, you can't blame the tool if the handler doesn't use it properly. Headcollars are designed not to hurt, prong and e collars are designed to cause discomfort or hurt. There is no comparison."

On this we disagree. I do not agree that prong or even ecollars are designed to cause hurt. Discomfort, maybe...if they are used that way. But it isn't possible to get through life without SOME discomfort, or even pain, and there are studies that indicate it's actually not even healthy to live a completely discomfort free life.

No, it is impossible to get through life without some discomfort or pain so why should we make this worse by increasing the amount the dog has?

Again, it is lazy owners who can't be bothered to train their dogs in a positive way that use these gadgets.

"There is not substitute for good training, but often owners/handlers either don't want to or don't have the time to, do that training so they use prong or e collars."

But that is true of ANY training tool...even a clicker. It's perfectly possible to train a dog without any tools whatsoever...IF you ARE willing to put the time and study into learning how to do that. Any tool you use is a step away from that sort of "ideal" training...but if the tool takes you in the direction of a happy, well trained dog because you have learned to use it CORRECTLY, then I see nothing wrong with using any such tool

I rarely use tools, I don't need them apart from occasionally use treats or toys to start something off.

If you don't see anything wrong with prong and e collars, why are you on this board? This board is about positive training without any of this type of gadget, that are for lazy owners who can't be bothered to train their dogs in another, kinder way which reinforces the bonding the owner has with their dog.

[Mattie]

Picture this:

A pack of foxhounds, thirty huge dogs bred and trained to hunt, waits calmly at the meet at the feet of the huntsman's horse. Then with a toot on the horn, they assemble beside his horse and trot several miles in close formation to the first draw. At the draw, they wait for command, and at a word, they pour into the undergrowth and start seeking for fox scent.

A single hound finds, bays, and the rest of the pack runs to it, picks up the scent and pours out of the undergrowth and across the landscape, all following that single scent.

That's control.

It is a wonderful sight, so many dogs under perfect control.

[Mattie]

You have obviously NOT been reading all of my posts. I *never* said the ONLY WAY my dogs will "walk nicely" on a leash is when they are wearing a prong collar. To repeat: my dogs are not allowed to pull when on a lead, they must walk nicely on a loose leash. BUT, at running events they are allowed to get excited when they are about to run. However, I have one dog in particular who absolutely will SLAM the end of the lead and while it doesn't seem to bother him a bit it hurts ME when he does that. So I tried a prong collar to see what effect it would have. It had a dramatic effect. He simply stopped hitting the end of the lead. Never even tried. And all I did was put it on him.

Instant result, in order to have an instant result it must hurt him, if it didn't he wouldn't stop slamming the end of the lead.

So if that particular tool brings him under better control and saves ME pain to boot, then I will continue using it - for BOTH of our benefits. BUT, knowing this dog as I do, it wouldn't surprise me if he learns that he CAN hit this collar like he does a regular training collar. At which point, if he reaches it, the collar will be ineffective and I will go back to using my previous tool - which is a bungee cord leash.

So it doesn't matter about your dog feeling pain, as long as you don't?

I would never put my feelings before my dogs no matter what they are, if I did, I wouldn't deserve to have dogs.

[Mattie]

[quote="DoggoneGA"]

So he was little tough with the dog for 10 minutes or so. He didn't hurt the dog, he showed some strength and got the dog to RELAX and give in...something neither the owners NOR OTHER TRAINERS could get the dog to do. A few minutes of discomfort that leads to a potential lifetime of relaxation and trust is worth it.
quote]

If you think that is acceptable to treat a dog I feel very sorry for your dogs, I had to stop watching it after the dog shut down. That poor dog was terrified and it showed but he couldn't read the dog and what he was saying. Neither can you obviously.

[Mattie]

"For instance, my male, who is a 95 pound high drive pit bull hit the end of the leash wearing one and it almost took his eye out, literally. The nylon cut into his eye very deeply and that was the last time I ever used one on him"

Yes, this is the fear I have about them too. I've never actually seen a dog hurt by one, but I can envision problems only too easily from what I *have* seen of dogs that will hit a head collar hard. And having sighthounds, as I do, I just can't bear the thought of possibly hurting their eyes.

I also worry about possible damage to their necks, as I said before. Pitbulls have very muscular necks and for breeds like that it's probably not such a worry...but with the more slender sighthounds it's just more worry than I want to have.

There have been cases were a dog's neck has been broken when the dog hit the end of the lead. In the UK they have pictures on some brands of head collars showing them being used with extending leads, they should never be used with an extending lead.