how to gently retire the nanny dog behavior

[praline]

Hi! Loving this forum and have my coffee and am reading a lot!
This post might end up being really long but its a complicated problem and I wanted to give all the information I could for any help or ideas people might have for me.

I have 3 dogs who are well behaved family members...

One issue I am having and thought to post here after some thinking is with my 12 year old corgi. When she was younger she was the perfect nanny dog. I would often joke she was a better mama than I was for my 3 kids!
Think peter pan and "nana" and that WAS my corgi's job from sun up until sundown.

That was several years ago and my children are not little toddlers to be herded. They are aged 14, 11 and 7. As with many families, the family roll has changed for us over the years but our darling corgi doesn't understand this.

Do NOT get me wrong, she is nothing like any of the horror stories I see on the show. She is never mean and loves her 2 legged children with all of her heart and soul and they love her. She doesn't RESPECT them and tends to ignore any commands or attempts to get her to listen to them.
With me she is quick as lightening listening to my commands.
EXAMPLE... if I want her off the couch I will simply say "Pepper down" and she leaps down and wags her "stump" and lays at my feet to get her good dog pat. If I am NOT in the room and one of my children tell her "pepper down" she just lays there and ignores them! They usually end up bodily dragging her off of said couch. I understand that depending on her for many years as a 3rd set of hands with the kids, I am most likely to blame for giving her a nanny type job. She was quick to lick a skinned knee, comfort when they were sad or ill. If a baby cried at night and I was too tired and asleep to hear, she would always jump in my bed and lick me awake HA HA

I can stand over my children and they give the command, she will look at me and usually follow their command IF I AM THERE LOOKING AT HER. The problem comes in when I am NOT in the room. As we are a family, I can't always be in every room my kids are and where she is so I need to teach "this old dog some new tricks" along with helping my children learn how to get more respect from her.

My 11 year old son gets the most frustrated. He is EXTREMELY interested in dog training, loves dogs and is wonderful with them. He reads training books like most kids his age read Harry Potter. He actually taught our 4 month old puppy to jump through a hoola hoop this weekend by himself and was so proud! No matter what he does, our Pepper completely ignores any command he gives! Of course he has trouble understanding Pepper is older than he is and spent many years playing mama dog to him.

How do I teach my children to get the respect and gain the leadership roll when I am not there looking over the shoulder of both kid and dog after years of her playing nanny to them? Is this "dream or wish" too far reaching for such an old dog with years of taking charge with the kids to change her roll in the family?

I know she is in her sunset years and won't be with us forever but I am hoping she can teach my children IN A LOVING AND GENTLE manner one last lesson before she leaves us... that of respect and leadership.

[Cheetah]

Do you feed and walk her, or do your children? If you are doing all the feeding and walking, then switching those two roles to your children, may help her to look up to them more.

Also, your children might need to just go back to obedience 101 with her, that way they can bond with her more. Just maybe a couple 5-minute sessions each day. She's a corgi, so is she food motivated at all. I know mine sure is! >^^;<

Have you ever tried a clicker? They're really awesome for things like this.

[Nettle]

Respect is something you need to give in order to get. Dragging the dog bodily off the couch is NOT a good plan. Apart from it being very rude, she is old and may have hidden pain. It's a good way to get a child bitten, and no 'thank-you' for all the years she spent looking after them.

Teach the child to lure her off the couch with a treat, and then praise her when she is on the ground. Does she have a comfortable bed or beds to lie on? That's a good place to encourage her to go if she isn't wanted on the couch.

And while I am being a misery, please don't have four month old puppies jumping - it is really bad for them. Perhaps you need to check out the training books your son is reading and steer him towards reward-based training.

I hope I haven't offended and I am sure you are a lovely and loving family so all you collectively need to do is give the dog good reason for obeying commands from the children by making those commands reasonable and rewarding compliance tangibly.

[Mattie]

EXAMPLE... if I want her off the couch I will simply say "Pepper down" and she leaps down and wags her "stump" and lays at my feet to get her good dog pat. If I am NOT in the room and one of my children tell her "pepper down" she just lays there and ignores them! They usually end up bodily dragging her off of said couch.

I wonder how your children would feel if you dragged them when they didn't do what you asked, probably would react by verbally attacking you yet them expect your dog to take this. If they want her to respect them, they have to treat her in a decent and proper way, dragging her off the couch isn't doing that. They would be much better to lure her off.

. The problem comes in when I am NOT in the room. As we are a family, I can't always be in every room my kids are and where she is so I need to teach "this old dog some new tricks" along with helping my children learn how to get more respect from her.

It is your children you need to teach not your dog. The need to learn to respect her and show her consideration.

My 11 year old son gets the most frustrated. He is EXTREMELY interested in dog training, loves dogs and is wonderful with them. He reads training books like most kids his age read Harry Potter. He actually taught our 4 month old puppy to jump through a hoola hoop this weekend by himself and was so proud! No matter what he does, our Pepper completely ignores any command he gives! Of course he has trouble understanding Pepper is older than he is and spent many years playing mama dog to him.

He may have taught your puppy but he can't teach your older dog, unless he learns to teach old dogs as well as young one he willnever be a trainer. Getting frustrated with a dog won't help train them, if the dog isn't getting it he is doing it wrong.

Always look to what we are doing if a dog doesn't understand and I suspect that she doesn't understand what your children really want her to do.

How do I teach my children to get the respect and gain the leadership roll when I am not there looking over the shoulder of both kid and dog after years of her playing nanny to them? Is this "dream or wish" too far reaching for such an old dog with years of taking charge with the kids to change her roll in the family?

You can't teach children or dogs if you are not there, only your children can do that but they have to realise that she is an old dog now, could possibly have arthritis and be in pain, may be partly deaf and doesn't hear properly and maybe going blind so doesn't see properly. They must take her into consideration and not thing only of themselves.

I know she is in her sunset years and won't be with us forever but I am hoping she can teach my children IN A LOVING AND GENTLE manner one last lesson before she leaves us... that of respect and leadership.

It isn't her job to teach your children, that is your job, she just wants to sleep when she wants, eat when she wants, etc, think of her as being a little old grannie, who should be pampered and pandered to, she has done her job, let her enjoy her retirement now.

[praline]

Thanks for all the responses. I don't take offense to any of them, I promise!
I am pretty thick skinned and am looking to change the behavior of my kids so she will respect them as leaders.

I do have to laugh a bit about the old and feeble part. Yes, she is the age of a little old grannie but most days act like she is 2 rather than 12~ HA HA
She is still a little bundle of energy, can tire out most younger dogs. She can hear the school bus from a mile away and at my parents' ranch can spot a fresh pile of horse manure from 3 patures over HA HA

We do take her most places with us and she is a family member who is well loved and a bit spoiled (but in the good way HA HA)
She does have an orthopedic bed and she will use it IF I tell her its time to get off the couch. Usually when I have company I tell her to get down but other than that she is happier on the couch.

the kids do use treats as lures but recently I have had to stop this with her. As she is an older spayed female with 3 kids in the house more than willing to give her treats she tends to pack on the pounds FAST if I am not a drill Sgt about her treats. Right now she is around 29 pounds but has gotten up as far as 35 in the past when I haven't been as strict.
I have learned corgi's can become obese in the blink of an eye!
We have tried the carrot stick or green bean as a treat as I have read these are good options for an overweight dog ... she looks at us like we are nuts when we offer them to her! HA HA

I would LOVE to drag my 14 year old off the couch to teach him a lesson HA HA just the vision of his face puts me in huge giggles!
I do use a clicker and have done clicker training. To be honest I do not trust my kids with the power of my clicker HA HA
Being younger school age kids the clicker could be used wrong and desensitize all 3 of my dogs if put in the wrong hands!

They do walk her every evening. They love taking her for her walks and its never considered a chore to them. She behaves very well for them on their walks. I do feed as I am the mom in the house! i feed the kids and I feed the dogs. Again I would worry if I let my kids feed her... they would be heavy handed with her food and she would pack on pounds.
I have started preparing her food, placing it in her bowl and giving it to one of my kids to put down for her. They enjoy doing this. They also take the time to brush her in the evenings. I didn't mean to make my kids sound like horrid little beast as they really do love her and do spend a lot of time with her. I have thought of signing my kids up for training classes but the classes around here require the child to be at least 16. I understand the reasoning for this but would like to teach my kids how to be better leaders when I am not in the room and give them better stradegies to get her to listen to them. One trick that they came up with is when they want her off the couch THEY go and lay on her doggie bed! HA HA sounds funny but as soon as they go lay down on her bed she gets off the couch and lays on her bed with them!

The other area we have trouble with is her wanting to herd my kids and their friends... yes corgi's were born to herd and her job for years was to herd kids but they get frustrated when she herds them still.
I do recall her and get her attention to distract her which is a simple thing for me .. but when I am not there its not so simple for the kids.

I understand they have to earn her respect but am unsure how they can go about this after so many years of her being the nanny dog. We all love our pepper with all of our hearts. She is a sweet dog but tends to ignore the kids' commands.

[ckranz]

Which is more valuable to a dog a large iamb's buscuit, or a small 1cm cube (or even half that) of something like a natural balance turkey log. The size of the treats can be cut way down.

I use hotdogs for agility training and I get just about 200 treats from 1 hotdog. Quality beats quantity.

Also to help regulate, perhaps create a "treat bin" In the treat bin are all the things you can use in 1 day for treats. The bin should hold about 1/3 of your dogs meal serving for the day.

Based on how much is left in the bin, adjust the amount of "Dinner" by that amount and the weight problem should no longer plague you.

When my dogs have their agility training, they earn their entire dinner out on the field...about 2.5 cups of food and healthy thing for them.

Working with you and working with your kids are not comparable. Its a different environmental picture for your dog...in comparison they are small and you are tall (though the older ones may be about the same now). They voices are different in tone, pitch and inflection. Have your oldest enroll her in a positive based obedience 101 class.

She will quickly pick up the expected behaviors with him. Working with him will improve their relationship. As each of your kids reach about his age that would be a good thing to do in general.

As far as the jumping. Limit jump heights to no higher than 4" at this age. There growth plates are still closing and hard jumping can result in serious and permanent injury. Dog involved in agility do not jump at their full height until about 2 years of age.

While the other may not be old enough to be in an obedience class, they can take a more active role in her care: Grooming, feeding, toileting etc...This will help your dog also build a bond with the others and teach them respect for their dog. As a parent of course you always should supervise their activities with the dog.

[Mattie]

praline, we don't attack people on here but we do speak honestly, I have seen to many things go wrong when people have pusy footed with their advice, being straight is much better even if it is a shock and is something that the person doesn't want to hear. You have taken the straight talk because you love your dog and children and really do want to improve things.

I have a 16 year old who is known as the hooligan at my vets, she is so active, cute and tries to get away with everything, if she can't she barks at them to tell the off. She can be quite obedient when she wants but at 16 years old she does get away with more than she should.

ckranz made a good suggestion about treats, they should be very small, they are treats not part of their meal although it is a good idea to reduce he food by the amount of treats she has.

There is nothing wrong with using veg as treats, my vet does when the dogs are in hydrotherapy, they use carrots, cauliflower, broccili, apples, bananas and several more.

When the children feed her, get them to do something with her before putting her bowl down, like sit, or down, this gives them that little bit more control. She doesn't get the bowl of food until she has done this.

It is a good idea to preper her food and let the children give it to her, you still have control of what she has that way.

Your children don't sound like little beasts, or no more than normal children do Children will keep trying to push the boundaries just like dogs do, nothing wrong with that, in fact that is what they should do so they can work out what is acceptable and what isn't, same as your dogs.

In the UK we do have training sessions for children, think the age they can start is 7, but now sure. Many of these children take these dogs on to do agility and flyball quite successfully.

If getting on her bed gets the dog off the couch, then use it, once she is off the children can then go onto it themselves. What they should do as she is getting off the couch to giver her the command, off. You will find that she will start to obey the command because she is hearing it when she is getting off.

I used to have this trouble with one of my dogs, she would herd my children, my children would give my dog something to do instead, like go and lie down, find a toy etc. They were using a distraction.

I may be wrong but she has probably learnt to ignore your children because they would get frustrated etc, and didn't follow through the command. When people get frustrated their voice and body language changes which confuses the dog, your youngest should be made aware of this when training the pup. Once a dog is confused, they CAN'T do what has been asked of them because they don't understand what is wanted.