Hi,
We have a labxStaff which we adopted after we found him roaming the streets 6 years ago. He is now approx 8yo and desexed. We have a female pitbull we got at 9 wo and she is now 6yo. They get on just fine. However once the male had been with us about 6 months he became aggressive to other dogs and visitors. He is fantastic with us, but as we need to go away soon we can't leave him with someone nor take him with us. The female is fine to do so. Can anyone recommend anything? We are desperately trying not to put him down.
Cheers
Dog aggression
Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost
-
NicolaLloyd
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:50 am
- Location: Leeds
Have you tried contacting any behaviourists? There is a link on this website to registered behaviourists (click on "links" above) or alternatively you could speak to your vet and see if they have any recommendations - some surgeries have behaviourists on site.
Perhaps one of the more experienced trainers on here will be able to help but I should imagine that they would need some sort of idea as to what might have triggered the change in behaviour - is there anything you can think of that happened 6 months ago which might have contributed to this change? An attack by another dog perhaps? An intruder in the house? It seems from your description that he feels the need to protect his territory for some reason
Sorry I'm not much help, I am not an expert just on here to try and understand dogs more as they fascinate me! I am sure someone will be along soon with more useful information - I am just guessing that they will need more information in order to give the correct advice.
Good luck - I'm sure it must be very difficult given your circumstances
Perhaps one of the more experienced trainers on here will be able to help but I should imagine that they would need some sort of idea as to what might have triggered the change in behaviour - is there anything you can think of that happened 6 months ago which might have contributed to this change? An attack by another dog perhaps? An intruder in the house? It seems from your description that he feels the need to protect his territory for some reason
Sorry I'm not much help, I am not an expert just on here to try and understand dogs more as they fascinate me! I am sure someone will be along soon with more useful information - I am just guessing that they will need more information in order to give the correct advice.
Good luck - I'm sure it must be very difficult given your circumstances
I would be looking for a boarding kennels who are experienced with handling aggressive dogs. A great number are, or most certainly should be as not all dogs will be 'nice' when in a new and strange environment.
It is also HIGHLY possible that your dog may be FINE in a new environment when you are not there (its also possible that he wouldnt be).
If you cant find a kennel to take him on for the time you are away then really, you have only one sensible option and that is to not go.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is, you take on a dog, he develops a problem you attempt to solve it but mean time, if you cant leave him then you cant go anywhere.
If you would like to elaborate on the problem, HOW is he aggressive, describe the body language and the triggers, when is he aggressive, whats happened in the past, then perhaps I and some of the other trainers on here and of course Victoria, could shed some light on the matter, however.....
Diagnosing a cause for such behaviour and a course of action to take, over the internet without seeing teh dog 'in action' is EXTREMELY difficult and the very best thing for you to do would be to see a reputable behaviourist - preferably one who is quite modern in their thinking nad not hung up on 'pack leader' or 'beat your dog into submission' (sorry folks im still in shock from watching last nights Dog Borstal where a clearly frightened and thus aggressive dog was HUNG by its collar for its behaviour)...
Do aviod any trainer or behaviourist who seems to want to treat the problem by attempting to 'out aggress' the dog - aggression begets aggression!
Do give us more information though.
Em
It is also HIGHLY possible that your dog may be FINE in a new environment when you are not there (its also possible that he wouldnt be).
If you cant find a kennel to take him on for the time you are away then really, you have only one sensible option and that is to not go.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is, you take on a dog, he develops a problem you attempt to solve it but mean time, if you cant leave him then you cant go anywhere.
If you would like to elaborate on the problem, HOW is he aggressive, describe the body language and the triggers, when is he aggressive, whats happened in the past, then perhaps I and some of the other trainers on here and of course Victoria, could shed some light on the matter, however.....
Diagnosing a cause for such behaviour and a course of action to take, over the internet without seeing teh dog 'in action' is EXTREMELY difficult and the very best thing for you to do would be to see a reputable behaviourist - preferably one who is quite modern in their thinking nad not hung up on 'pack leader' or 'beat your dog into submission' (sorry folks im still in shock from watching last nights Dog Borstal where a clearly frightened and thus aggressive dog was HUNG by its collar for its behaviour)...
Do aviod any trainer or behaviourist who seems to want to treat the problem by attempting to 'out aggress' the dog - aggression begets aggression!
Do give us more information though.
Em
Hi,
Thanks for your replies. The aggression startrd 6 months after we got him 6 years ago. We live in a small town which had one boarding kennel. The lady there wrapped a newspaper up and told him there's no way he was going to get away with anyhing and there was never a prob. Each time we went away he loved staying with her. Unfortunately she has now retired and no one other than us can get near him. He gets low and barks and if you get too close will lunge and has nipped two people. We don't know his history but he was house broken and partly trained when we got him. He heels well until he sees a stranger or another dog and then it's on. We no longer walk him, I know it's self perpetuating but we can't risk him biting anyone. Our own research indicates he is telling people to get away, perhaps because of what happened in the past. There were no triggers that we know of. It just seems that he one day realised this is where he was living and no one else was going to interfere. He is fine with very young dogs, less than 3 months, male or female. Not going away is not an option and as we can't take him with us will have to be pts. Two visiting behvioursists and the vet said put him down as there are lots of well adjusted dogs to adopt. But we like him.
Thanks for your replies. The aggression startrd 6 months after we got him 6 years ago. We live in a small town which had one boarding kennel. The lady there wrapped a newspaper up and told him there's no way he was going to get away with anyhing and there was never a prob. Each time we went away he loved staying with her. Unfortunately she has now retired and no one other than us can get near him. He gets low and barks and if you get too close will lunge and has nipped two people. We don't know his history but he was house broken and partly trained when we got him. He heels well until he sees a stranger or another dog and then it's on. We no longer walk him, I know it's self perpetuating but we can't risk him biting anyone. Our own research indicates he is telling people to get away, perhaps because of what happened in the past. There were no triggers that we know of. It just seems that he one day realised this is where he was living and no one else was going to interfere. He is fine with very young dogs, less than 3 months, male or female. Not going away is not an option and as we can't take him with us will have to be pts. Two visiting behvioursists and the vet said put him down as there are lots of well adjusted dogs to adopt. But we like him.
Soooooo
To summarise - he's nipped twice - what was the damage caused by this, was this just a nip and release or was this a grab rag and do damage type bite?
Would you say it was a warning nip 'go away from me im frightened' ... or what?
Frightened dogs will eventually bite IF pushed far enough - some take more pushing than others.
Your dog does not sound 'nasty' he sounds frightened and for whatever reason, people are still putting him in the postion where he feels the only thing to do to get people LISTENING to him is to nip them.
I would not have a dog put down for nipping - ok if he was hurling himself at peoples faces and going back and back biting and ragging, yeah id have him put down. But for this? No.
Im guessing you are not in the UK, so ill struggle to help you with finding a kennels, but wherever you are, i cannot believe AT ALL that there is not a kennels you can get him to whilst you are away - what do you intend to do with your other dog?
All dogs have the ability to bite someone and hurt them very badly, from a tiny chihuahua to a massive st bernard. Your dog is no different, hes just learned through life that sometiems he has to bite to protect himself - its YOUR job to prevent him feelign that need, and if you acheive that you'll prevent him from biting.
I think you need to look further afield for a kennels for him to stay in, where are you going that you must go and cannot take him with that is such a problem? A well run kennels should have NO problem in keeping safe a dog who has fear related aggression problems, there are muzzles, there are protective gloves....
Whats your time scale for going away? It may be if you can figure out WHAT exactly it is that strangers do that triggers him to nip to warn them off that you can desensitize him to this.
If being off lead is a problem, dont be off lead, keep him on a leash, keep him muzzled, or as you are doing, for the time being, avoid walks and replace them with training, games, other kinds of exericise and mental stimulation.
I can totally understand your desire to keep other people safe, Im struggling though to see exactly what you aim to achieve with posting on the forum.... i can give you endless ideas for solving the problem, i can tell you to try find a kennels that may be a tad further than your own home town (my home town as NO kennels, id have to go a long way to find a kennel id put any of mine in, i know people who drive 2 hours or more to the kennels they use).
What were the qualifications of the behaviourists who saw your dog? What did they see. Personally for behaviour i wouldnt take a vets word, vets are qualified in fixing physical medical problems, NOT behavioural problems, unless they are behaviour specialists.
Im sure I and the other people on here can give you lots of help to solve your dog - what we are unlikely to do is to tell you that its ok to kill your dog so you can go away. Yes there are 1000's of dogs without problems in shelters and roaming free all over the world - but they arent your dog, this dog is YOUR dog and unless his behavioural problems are so severe he is an immediate and serious threat to anyone and everyone he meets, putting him down is NOT the best option, and from what you have said, this is not the case, if he actually intended to do people serious and greivious harm, he would have done so by now, a dog does not nip if it intends to rip off an arm!
Hopefully you can clarify what the people were doing at the time of the nips, how serious they were, bruising? bleeding?.... what YOU were doing, HOW you have trained him, etc etc.
Em
To summarise - he's nipped twice - what was the damage caused by this, was this just a nip and release or was this a grab rag and do damage type bite?
Would you say it was a warning nip 'go away from me im frightened' ... or what?
Frightened dogs will eventually bite IF pushed far enough - some take more pushing than others.
Your dog does not sound 'nasty' he sounds frightened and for whatever reason, people are still putting him in the postion where he feels the only thing to do to get people LISTENING to him is to nip them.
I would not have a dog put down for nipping - ok if he was hurling himself at peoples faces and going back and back biting and ragging, yeah id have him put down. But for this? No.
Im guessing you are not in the UK, so ill struggle to help you with finding a kennels, but wherever you are, i cannot believe AT ALL that there is not a kennels you can get him to whilst you are away - what do you intend to do with your other dog?
All dogs have the ability to bite someone and hurt them very badly, from a tiny chihuahua to a massive st bernard. Your dog is no different, hes just learned through life that sometiems he has to bite to protect himself - its YOUR job to prevent him feelign that need, and if you acheive that you'll prevent him from biting.
I think you need to look further afield for a kennels for him to stay in, where are you going that you must go and cannot take him with that is such a problem? A well run kennels should have NO problem in keeping safe a dog who has fear related aggression problems, there are muzzles, there are protective gloves....
Whats your time scale for going away? It may be if you can figure out WHAT exactly it is that strangers do that triggers him to nip to warn them off that you can desensitize him to this.
If being off lead is a problem, dont be off lead, keep him on a leash, keep him muzzled, or as you are doing, for the time being, avoid walks and replace them with training, games, other kinds of exericise and mental stimulation.
I can totally understand your desire to keep other people safe, Im struggling though to see exactly what you aim to achieve with posting on the forum.... i can give you endless ideas for solving the problem, i can tell you to try find a kennels that may be a tad further than your own home town (my home town as NO kennels, id have to go a long way to find a kennel id put any of mine in, i know people who drive 2 hours or more to the kennels they use).
What were the qualifications of the behaviourists who saw your dog? What did they see. Personally for behaviour i wouldnt take a vets word, vets are qualified in fixing physical medical problems, NOT behavioural problems, unless they are behaviour specialists.
Im sure I and the other people on here can give you lots of help to solve your dog - what we are unlikely to do is to tell you that its ok to kill your dog so you can go away. Yes there are 1000's of dogs without problems in shelters and roaming free all over the world - but they arent your dog, this dog is YOUR dog and unless his behavioural problems are so severe he is an immediate and serious threat to anyone and everyone he meets, putting him down is NOT the best option, and from what you have said, this is not the case, if he actually intended to do people serious and greivious harm, he would have done so by now, a dog does not nip if it intends to rip off an arm!
Hopefully you can clarify what the people were doing at the time of the nips, how serious they were, bruising? bleeding?.... what YOU were doing, HOW you have trained him, etc etc.
Em
>>We no longer walk him, I know it's self perpetuating but we can't risk him biting anyone.<<
Why don't you walk him on lead?
>>Our own research indicates he is telling people to get away<<
That's a good observation. Some call it "distance increasing behaviour". The intention is actually to avoid actual physical violence, however if pushed, many dogs will step up their distance increasing efforts.
The reason your original kennel keeper was able to get close to him was because she didn't reinforce those distance increasing behaviours (an old hand, I suspect).
Now that your dog has learned that nipping works to increase distance, I'd imagine a new kennel keeper would need to have an incredible amount of skill to achieve the same result.
A very skilled trainer can use distance as a means to reinforce more appropriate behaviours (calmness, acceptance etc).
Do the kennels flat-out refuse to take your dog? I find that hard to believe, any kennel keeper worth their salt will have tricks for handling any sort of dog. Frankly, yours doesn't sound all that bad!
Why don't you walk him on lead?
>>Our own research indicates he is telling people to get away<<
That's a good observation. Some call it "distance increasing behaviour". The intention is actually to avoid actual physical violence, however if pushed, many dogs will step up their distance increasing efforts.
The reason your original kennel keeper was able to get close to him was because she didn't reinforce those distance increasing behaviours (an old hand, I suspect).
Now that your dog has learned that nipping works to increase distance, I'd imagine a new kennel keeper would need to have an incredible amount of skill to achieve the same result.
A very skilled trainer can use distance as a means to reinforce more appropriate behaviours (calmness, acceptance etc).
Do the kennels flat-out refuse to take your dog? I find that hard to believe, any kennel keeper worth their salt will have tricks for handling any sort of dog. Frankly, yours doesn't sound all that bad!
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
I don't agree that any kennel owner will take on any dog, most have untrained staff working on minimum wage, and if they bitten the kennels will be liable. Would I risk a massive lawsuit if I was running a boarding kennel?
I wonder if you dog took 6 months to develop the behaviour problem because he was lacking in confidence? Dogs do need a degree of confidence to use aggression. If that's the case, putting him in kennels (perhaps seperately from your other dog) would make him less confident, and less likely to be reactive, especially if you find a kennel with kind staff (ie that don't reinforce your dogs fear by hitting him) he should be ok.
Also in kennels, the presence of people is a really really good thing, they bring food, excercise and company, all of the things the dog is missing. It might even have a beneficial effect providing they don't do anything horrible to him.
Your other choice, is not to go. Sorry to be blunt, but you've lived with this behaviour for 6 years without trying to solve it, and now your dog may lose his life because YOU haven't done enough to deal with his problems?
I have a friend who's child is autistic and doesn't take a change of routine well. She wants to go and stay with her mother over christmas, but her son doesn't travel well and her mother isn't very good with him (thinks he needs a 'firm hand' and a good smack
). Her choice is to leave her son with her mother in law which would be less disruptive for him, or not go. She wouldn't consider having him killed or giving him up for adoption.
Just a (highly unethical) final point, most kennels will not refuse a dog entry, but might say, after they've stayed there, that the dog can't come back. You could in theory play down your dogs problems, say he's unsure when he arrives but is always fine as soon as you've gone, and then leave and hope for the best.
That's a totally unfair thing to do, but then so is murdering a dog so you can have a holiday
I wonder if you dog took 6 months to develop the behaviour problem because he was lacking in confidence? Dogs do need a degree of confidence to use aggression. If that's the case, putting him in kennels (perhaps seperately from your other dog) would make him less confident, and less likely to be reactive, especially if you find a kennel with kind staff (ie that don't reinforce your dogs fear by hitting him) he should be ok.
Also in kennels, the presence of people is a really really good thing, they bring food, excercise and company, all of the things the dog is missing. It might even have a beneficial effect providing they don't do anything horrible to him.
Your other choice, is not to go. Sorry to be blunt, but you've lived with this behaviour for 6 years without trying to solve it, and now your dog may lose his life because YOU haven't done enough to deal with his problems?
I have a friend who's child is autistic and doesn't take a change of routine well. She wants to go and stay with her mother over christmas, but her son doesn't travel well and her mother isn't very good with him (thinks he needs a 'firm hand' and a good smack
). Her choice is to leave her son with her mother in law which would be less disruptive for him, or not go. She wouldn't consider having him killed or giving him up for adoption.Just a (highly unethical) final point, most kennels will not refuse a dog entry, but might say, after they've stayed there, that the dog can't come back. You could in theory play down your dogs problems, say he's unsure when he arrives but is always fine as soon as you've gone, and then leave and hope for the best.
That's a totally unfair thing to do, but then so is murdering a dog so you can have a holiday
>>I don't agree that any kennel owner will take on any dog, most have untrained staff working on minimum wage, and if they bitten the kennels will be liable.<<
You would hope that they would have the kennels set-up so that untrained staff don't have to handle aggressive dogs in an unsafe manner. Even friendly dogs can get a little unsafe when kennelled.
>>Dogs do need a degree of confidence to use aggression<<
A lack of confidence is more often the cause of aggression.
Aggression usually begins as an emotional state, the behaviour manifests through that emotional state, then the environment reinforces or diminishes that behaviour.
You would hope that they would have the kennels set-up so that untrained staff don't have to handle aggressive dogs in an unsafe manner. Even friendly dogs can get a little unsafe when kennelled.
>>Dogs do need a degree of confidence to use aggression<<
A lack of confidence is more often the cause of aggression.
Aggression usually begins as an emotional state, the behaviour manifests through that emotional state, then the environment reinforces or diminishes that behaviour.
Regards,
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
Aidan
http://www.PositivePetzine.com
I agree with you both!
I agree with Josie though because i have SEEN dogs who in their own home will use aggression that does indeed stem from fear and a lack of confidence in some things, NOT use aggression when removed from their familiar environment.
Likewise ive seen dogs not normally showing fearful aggression removed from their familiar environment where they become fearful and then use aggression.
I do agree that 99% of aggression stems from fear and severe lack of confidence has a part to play in that, but dogs can be confident about one thing and not another and that may change as you change the environment the dog is in.
Its never easy is it!
Em
I agree with Josie though because i have SEEN dogs who in their own home will use aggression that does indeed stem from fear and a lack of confidence in some things, NOT use aggression when removed from their familiar environment.
Likewise ive seen dogs not normally showing fearful aggression removed from their familiar environment where they become fearful and then use aggression.
I do agree that 99% of aggression stems from fear and severe lack of confidence has a part to play in that, but dogs can be confident about one thing and not another and that may change as you change the environment the dog is in.
Its never easy is it!
Em
I dont think I worded myself properly, you've misunderstood what I meant. I said a 'degree' of confidence. A very confident dog wont use aggression, why would it? It's a combination of enough fear to feel the need to defend yourself, and confidence to carry it through.
That's why a lot of the old fashioned aversion techniques seem to work with aggression, because they take away the dogs confidence in using aggression. Obviously as you will know that doesn't deal with the fear which is why it often gets worse.
If you have two dogs who are both scared of people approaching, one might bark and lunge and one might roll onto it's back and urinate. The fear could be the same, it's just one dog might be more confident at seeing off the threat.
It's 3am for me so that's why I'm waffling a bit!
That's why a lot of the old fashioned aversion techniques seem to work with aggression, because they take away the dogs confidence in using aggression. Obviously as you will know that doesn't deal with the fear which is why it often gets worse.
If you have two dogs who are both scared of people approaching, one might bark and lunge and one might roll onto it's back and urinate. The fear could be the same, it's just one dog might be more confident at seeing off the threat.
It's 3am for me so that's why I'm waffling a bit!
Just saying it's more often a lack of confidence that causes aggression. Really just ensuring that the original poster was informed so as to make a good assessment.