Regaining puppy's trust

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Erica
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Erica »

If she initiates it, that's fine! When you sit on the floor you're much smaller and less scary in her eyes, I bet, so she feels more confident. At this point I would probably be letting her initiate most if not all interactions, so she doesn't feel pressured.

When she doesn't do the behavior you ask, I would wait a second and then lure it - luring will be a good way to get behaviors without poking and prodding her. Luring is using a treat (and eventually, once she is happy to follow your hands, just your hands) to get the dog to put themselves where you want them.

Sit, for example: Show her the treat you have in your hand by putting it a couple inches in front of her nose. Move the treat up a couple inches and a little bit backwards over her head - and she'll probably sit automatically. If you're more of a visual learner let me know and I can make a quick video - I didn't find one that was specific enough for my tastes :)

For more ideas on hands-off training, Kikopup on YouTube is a great resource with just about every sort of thing you'd want to train - if you have specific questions, we can also help out, of course!
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
JudyN
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by JudyN »

If your voice could be intimidating, you could also teach hand signals - it impresses observers, but dogs can actually pick these up more easily than verbal commands. Often the luring movement becomes the signal - there's some examples here http://www.dog-training-excellence.com/ ... gnals.html but note I haven't read the instructions so don't know if they're what we would recommend or not.

I'm not an expert on clicker training but there are pitfalls - I did 'freeshaping' with my dog (basically clicked whatever he wanted to try, to enourage experimentation and problem-solving) and now when he sees the clicker he'll just take the easiest options, either barking or twitching a paw, and then looks at me so expectantly and I give in and treat him :oops: This doesn't invalidate the method, as I'm sure this is all down to my mistakes, but you're right to want to get it right.
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Sanna
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Sanna »

I love that you're asking all these questions and are so willing to change your approach for your girl :)

Clicker training is awesome and very effective but it does take a little practice I think; and, like Judy said, free shaping for example is not for every dog- the clicker is not a magic tool it's just one of many ways you can mark 'yes that's the behaviour I want, you've earned a treat by doing that!' It's not a way to get your dogs attention (which is what some people seem to think), or a special sound that will make dogs instantly obey every command..;)
Personally I find it very useful for teaching more complicated behaviours that can't easily be lured, or if you're a distance away so you can't reward immediately- then the click will bridge that gap. But for basic puppy training you'll do just as well with lure/reward training. Or use a marker word like 'yes!' instead. Once a behaviour is learned and proofed in lots of different settings you would then fade the clicker anyway, same as you fade out the lure and reward less frequently ;) I suppose to answer your question- if a dog only listens when the owner has clicker/ treats/ toy (could be either) it's possibly because reward based training has turned into bribery, and the training process has broken down..

Teaching a hand touch or target might be useful for you, very helpful for moving dogs without any coercion- I'm sure there's a kikopup video for that, will post a link when I get home.
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Nettle
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Nettle »

She is so lucky to have you! I too am charmed at your lovely attitude in learning to help her and see things from her point of view.

Purely personal to my training - I never ask a dog to sit for lead on, side of road etc. Mostly because the dogs I keep are not suited anatomically to the 'sit' position.

I've never lost one yet through not asking for 'sit' for those reasons. It's a convention that comes from Service (as in armed forces) training that has bled over into general obedience training. We think it's "good". It can be useful here and there. But daily for no real reason? Up to you if you discontinue. A companion dog does not need to know those things. But equally, no problem if you want to carry on - a dog in 'sit' bounces less and finds barking harder.
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btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

If she initiates it, that's fine! When you sit on the floor you're much smaller and less scary in her eyes, I bet, so she feels more confident. At this point I would probably be letting her initiate most if not all interactions, so she doesn't feel pressured.
Ok, cool. What about in situations where she kind-of-sort-of initiates contact? When I'm sitting at my desk and she comes over and sits or lays down next to me, is it ok to pet her? Or should I wait until she *really* initiates it (e.g., when she puts her head on my lap or nose-pokes me)?
When she doesn't do the behavior you ask, I would wait a second and then lure it - luring will be a good way to get behaviors without poking and prodding her. Luring is using a treat (and eventually, once she is happy to follow your hands, just your hands) to get the dog to put themselves where you want them.
Awesome. I taught a few hand signals for sit, down, and stay, which hopefully will have me covered for some basic daily manners.
I'm not an expert on clicker training but there are pitfalls - I did 'freeshaping' with my dog (basically clicked whatever he wanted to try, to enourage experimentation and problem-solving) and now when he sees the clicker he'll just take the easiest options, either barking or twitching a paw, and then looks at me so expectantly and I give in and treat him :oops:
Haha oh no! Gypsy can be so lazy that I don't think freeshaping would work for her. I tried playing the 101 uses for a box game with her yesterday, and she eventually just laid down next to the box and gave up. :lol: She's so eager to please that I think that approach would be a little overwhelming for her. (Although I plan on continuing with the 101 uses game--after 3.5 months of being prodded into doing what I want, I can only imagine it would help her psyche to learn that she also gets rewarded for doing what she wants.) I do think the luring approach would work though, it's very similar to how I trained the basic commands with her.
Once a behaviour is learned and proofed in lots of different settings you would then fade the clicker anyway, same as you fade out the lure and reward less frequently ;) I suppose to answer your question- if a dog only listens when the owner has clicker/ treats/ toy (could be either) it's possibly because reward based training has turned into bribery, and the training process has broken down..
Got it!

One more question: There are a few commands that induce a response that's something short of fearful but definitely stressed. Gypsy is really good with the "leave it" command, but afterward gives me a look like she thinks she's been doing something bad. Can I reverse this by increasing treat frequency for that command? She's gotten so reliable with it that I'd rather not teach a new cue for that command.

Again, thank y'all so much for all this help.
btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

Purely personal to my training - I never ask a dog to sit for lead on, side of road etc. Mostly because the dogs I keep are not suited anatomically to the 'sit' position.

I've never lost one yet through not asking for 'sit' for those reasons. It's a convention that comes from Service (as in armed forces) training that has bled over into general obedience training. We think it's "good". It can be useful here and there. But daily for no real reason? Up to you if you discontinue. A companion dog does not need to know those things. But equally, no problem if you want to carry on - a dog in 'sit' bounces less and finds barking harder.
Wow, OK, thanks for letting me know. I've really been relying on those just to keep her from dashing out of doors, onto the road, etc. Is there an equivalent training technique that you'd recommend? Door-dashing has never really been a problem, but Gypsy has absolutely zero road awareness and if I discontinue the "sit before you step in the road" technique then I'd like to have some replacement ready to keep her safe.

Then again, Gypsy also sits a lot on her own volition, so maybe the "sit" position doesn't bother her the way it would your dogs?
btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

And, of course, thanks for the kind words. The way I see it, I'm going to have this dog for another twelve years (hopefully more!) and anything I can do to make those years happier is a boon to the both of us.

This forum really is a godsend, I can't overstate how much this has changed/is going to change my training techniques with Gypsy, and hopefully our relationship as well. I'll say it again because I can't say it enough, thanks everyone for your help!
Sanna
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Sanna »

Right:

Hand touch/ targeting https://youtu.be/RWSJVwZybwo

And yes, get better treats :D 'Real' stuff like roast chicken, frankfurters, cheese, dried liver beats shop bought stuff hands down!

Honestly, your instincts are great. Trust your gut.

For petting- of course it's ok when she comes to you :) you can always do a 'consent test'- pet for no more than 3 seconds, then withdraw. It'll usually be pretty clear from the dogs behaviour if they want you to carry on (leans into you, pushes/ nudges you) or not (moves away).

Edited to add: why do you think she responds that way to 'leave it'? How did you train it?
In my limited experience it's often a stressful cue/ exercise because 1) leaving food is hard and therefore quite stressful for most dogs in itself and 2) people often get very assertive with the way they deliver this cue and go 'LEAVE IT!!', when in reality your normal happy training voice would be far better- it's a really important cue so you want it to be good fun for the dog! (and also there may come a day when you need the impact of 'LEAVE IT!!!' to literally save your dog's life- would be a real shame if the dog has become so desensitised it doesn't even care...) So yes, lots of really extra yummy rewards, keep it happy, train it as a fun game!

Oh and Nettles wisdom and knowledge is infinite, but personally for me: I have my dog sit for gates and doorways. For our situation it's a safety thing, I need him to turn back to me and sit/wait whilst I shut/lock doors rather than rush out looking for trouble :roll: :lol: and he's a natural 'sitter' anyway. So whatever works for you and your dog (but not 'just because') :)
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Nettle
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Nettle »

Add to the 'leave it' :)

Leave it GOOD GIRL (reward).

Then leave it becomes the precursor to a reward. And she knows she has done right instead of being anxious because she did wrong. Dogs don't really understand 'wrong' but they sure as heck understand reward for doing what we want.
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delladooo
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by delladooo »

Just had a quick read and going to add my two pence worth....

For roads, initially I did consider the sitting thing but my irl perception of it from the people I saw who enforced it was very I'm the boss and you will listen grrr grrr types which put me off (obviously it's just a case who I saw in my area but it clearly left an impression!) but as I have no issue with my dogs walking in front of me, I do need them to stop at roads for their safety so initially I used our wait command at the edge of every road with the hopes of it becoming an automatic curb = wait type thing and whilst it's going very well, it's not perfect so more often than not we do still say wait but we're getting there :)
btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

Right, OK. I've been paying more attention to it in the past couple of days and the tone for "leave it" is definitely more assertive/aggressive than what she gets during training. Part of the stressed response probably stems from that. I'd trained her to "leave it" by clicking and treating as soon as she left the object alone, so I bet the lack of click/treat also reads to her as a sort of punishment. ("I left it but he didn't treat me, I must have done something wrong!") So, I'll try changing my tone and rewarding more consistently.
btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

I've been working on the positive interrupter for a few days, and am having only limited success with it. If Gypsy is paying attention to me, she'll immediately make eye contact, and I'll click and treat. But she's now gotten into a habit of not looking at me at all, or only doing it after 15-30 seconds. In those cases, I'm still clicking, but I make sure it's a lower quality treat--kibbles instead of bits of meat.

What can I do to improve her speed and consistency with the interrupter? Should I stop clicking for the slow responses? Or am I pushing things too fast, and should just keep practicing the interrupter when she's already tuned in to me? Thanks!
Shalista
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Shalista »

Just a quick ditto to someone's comment up there. "YES!" worked alot better then clicking for me given that i had much better luck training Bax with hand signs and it was difficult to juggle treats, clickers, and signs. so..... Loved using a word instead of a click, had much better luck with hand signs then with vocal ques.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
Sanna
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by Sanna »

btr323 wrote:I've been working on the positive interrupter for a few days, and am having only limited success with it. If Gypsy is paying attention to me, she'll immediately make eye contact, and I'll click and treat. But she's now gotten into a habit of not looking at me at all, or only doing it after 15-30 seconds. In those cases, I'm still clicking, but I make sure it's a lower quality treat--kibbles instead of bits of meat.

What can I do to improve her speed and consistency with the interrupter? Should I stop clicking for the slow responses? Or am I pushing things too fast, and should just keep practicing the interrupter when she's already tuned in to me? Thanks!
What happened to taking a break from training..? :lol:
You seem to read her very well- what do you think the reason is?

I suspect you're going too fast, pushing for too much or trying to get too many reps. The trick to a good training session is always end on a high and leave the dog wanting more ;)

Tips: initially when teaching positive interrupter all you're doing is basically 'sound= super yummy stuff'- the dog doesn't have to do anything. You need that association to be really strong before you progress the exercise.

Look at motivation- you could use something extra great that she doesn't get for anything else. Squeezy cheese from a tube is normally a good bet :D

Don't overdo the training! The last thing you want is for her to get bored or stressed or lose interest. I think you might be better off literally doing 1-3 reps NO MORE than ONCE a day, and really make it worth her while- you want her kinda secretly hoping 'gee I wish he'd make that special noise again!' (Not 'here we go with that same old boring noise again..'). Does that make sense?
btr323
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Re: Regaining puppy's trust

Post by btr323 »

What happened to taking a break from training..? :lol:
Haha I know, I know... :oops: I have been treating her just for being around me (settling around my feet when I'm at my desk, not jumping up and leaving the area when I get near her, etc.), and figured that I might as well make the treating a bit more productive. She seems to enjoy it, so I don't feel too guilty about it :wink:

I'm definitely going too fast--I went from "sound = super yummy stuff" to "sound = look at me" in about 48 hours. Gypsy can be such a quick learner, which makes me overconfident about training. (And it doesn't help that I want to believe that my dog is the smartest, most trainable, loveliest dog in the world, haha.) I'm guessing the proper course of action would be to go back to "sound = super yummy stuff" for a few more days, then retrace my steps and incorporate the "look at me"? Or does the fact that I've got a half-baked "look at me" response change things?
Don't overdo the training! The last thing you want is for her to get bored or stressed or lose interest. I think you might be better off literally doing 1-3 reps NO MORE than ONCE a day, and really make it worth her while- you want her kinda secretly hoping 'gee I wish he'd make that special noise again!' (Not 'here we go with that same old boring noise again..'). Does that make sense?
Yup, this is another thing I'm doing wrong! I've done more like two to four thirty-second sessions a day, and have even used it a few times in "real life" (e.g., when she's chewing on my rug). I'll roll things back.

It's hard to believe how much progress Gypsy and I have made in less than a week! She has her mood swings, but she's no longer displaying fear nearly as much when I'm around. She's asking for more physical affection--woohoo!--and is comfortable enough to nap at my feet again. Thanks to all of y'all for making this possible!
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