What's your opinion on "Tug" games?

Noobs · Post by **Noobs** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:10 am

I have read differing opinion on tug games. One will say tug is healthy for the dog and that the dog should win every time. Another says don't play tug with your dog, and if you do, never let the dog win because the dog will see himself as dominant over you. So what do the trainers/behaviorists on this forum think?

Here's a pro-tug trainer: http://www.leecharleskelley.com/thetop1 ... ofwar.html
And a how-to:
http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007 ... the-block/

I'm afraid I can't find the article I read that was anti-tug of war, but I do recall it said not to let the dog win.

griffin · Post by **griffin** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:26 am

I'm nothing but a dog parent. I have always played tug with my dogs and my current dog. It is a fun game for them, mentally and physically stimulating. While playing tug I will work on some commands though. Put names to actions like circle, through, and yes, release.

Do/did I let him/them "win" as in, have the object? Yep, after praising him/them for following the commands. Do they think "they won, they are stronger/higher in the order? Who knows, I do know, I have yet to have a dog that didn't follow commands...

Horace's Mum · Post by **Horace's Mum** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:02 am

I play tug a lot as it is one of the few games Horus thoroughly enjoys. When I got him I was told not to, as he has a tendency towards aggression, but his aggression I know now is purely realted to stress and anxiety. I have had to teach him to be more gentle, but playing tug has been the best (albeit most dangeraous for me!) way to teach him, as it is such a strong reward to continue. Normal mouthing training tactics do not work as well with him because of his deafness.

When I did start playing, I made sure I never let go. Then, I realised that if I did let go, it just made him even more keen and he came straight back to me for more. That made me realise that it IS JUST A GAME, there are no ulterior plans for taking over the world from him etc.

Now we play tug all the time. He has learnt not to snap at the toy if he lets go, otherwise play stops, so he has learnt not to jump up at people with his mouth open (major achievement). He has learnt to let go nicely when I take the toy from his mouth, and he will do this for anyone, valuable if he gets something he is not supposed to have (except food, still working on that). He is slowly learning a sign for "drop", which will hopefully be useful if I can't get to him in time, or just as another command to use in training. And we have bonded more through playing tug than I think through anything else.

Long post, but does that help?! (Horus is a deaf rescue who has been with me 6 months)

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:46 pm

I don't play tug with mine as they are working dogs and need to be soft-mouthed. I also advise people not to play tug if they have a dog that gets over-excited quickly and has other discipline issues eg biting, jumpong on people and mouthing, until those issues have been sorted.

Otherwise I have no problem with it, and for certain dogs it is a better reward than a *** bit.

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:56 am

Nettle wrote:I also advise people not to play tug if they have a dog that gets over-excited quickly and has other discipline issues eg biting, jumpong on people and mouthing, until those issues have been sorted.

And yet redirecting such a dog onto a tuggy can be very useful.
We've used one to teach a measure of self control to our manic collie.
It stops him focussing on other dogs that get in his space, he will release on command and he will wait to be told he can play.

Pam

Ocelot0411 · Post by **Ocelot0411** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:34 am

I have a Doberman and being a guarding type breed tuggy is her favourite game. I too read al of the stuff about who should win, dominance issues

etc

To be honest I now think its like anything else you do with your dog. Have rules and stick to them. If your dog jumps all over you when you go to play tuggy and you don't want them to, stop playing until they learn to behave nicely.

The only thing I would add to this is that I have used Ellie's love of tuggy to my advantage (I am v crafty you see

) so if I think I am going to struggly to get her to come back to me - when she s playing with another dog for example - out comes the tuggy rope! Then its lke 'what dog - tuggy yippee!!

As with most things in life its just common sense really, but I personally would not stop my dog playing a game she loves, as long as she plays it in an acceptable manner.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:36 am

I have no idea why my post had t-i-t-bit edited

Anyway

as part of sensible redirection, a tuggy can be useful to certain dogs. However what I was referring to are the sort of inexperienced dog owners who post HEEEELLLLPPPPP kind of posts because their dogs are misbehaving in a rough and potentially risky manner. In this type of situation, the last thing the dog needs is to be made more excited, and so games of strength accompanied by noise and quick movement are not advised.

griffin · Post by **griffin** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:44 am

Nettle wrote:I don't play tug with mine as they are working dogs and need to be soft-mouthed. I also advise people not to play tug if they have a dog that gets over-excited quickly and has other discipline issues eg biting, jumpong on people and mouthing, until those issues have been sorted.

Otherwise I have no problem with it, and for certain dogs it is a better reward than a *** bit.

Interesting. Eddie used to be a jumper and mouther, still does from time to time, but nothing like he used to be. I started playing tug with him and along with other redirections when he would jump or mouth-the issues have for the most part been resolved.

I use a squeaky toy that has pieces of nylon cloth hanging off it (made by cong). He will only play tug with it and, only IF he has the cloth ends in his mouth. As soon as he bites down too hard on the squeaky part, it squeaks and he drops the toy. Thus, If he has the part that squeaks in his mouth, he will not play tug.

When we play fetch with it, he will try to pick it up by the cloth ends. If he cannot, he will gently pick it up by the squeaky end, then gently place it down at my feet.

That toy is the best thing we ever bought for him. He will do anything, literally anything I ask if I have that toy with me and squeak it...

Now I just have to have it with me the next time my neighbor's dog gets out and sits at my deck howling...

DoggoneGA · Post by **DoggoneGA** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:19 pm

For me...it depends more on the dog. Some dogs just don't like to play that game. But for those who do, I've always allowed them to do it...BUT I *always* teach them to drop the tug toy on command. And then I reinforce it by occasionally giving the "give" command in the middle of the most intense part of the game.

No, the dog should NOT always win! In fact, the dog needs to be taught this is YOUR game, not his and you can end it anytime you like.

Yoshi · Post by **Yoshi** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:27 pm

My current foster loves to play the game. He knows not to bite, and that if he gets the toy to bring it back to me, unless I wear him out. Sometimes I'll run around with him holding onto the other end to give him more of a workout. Recently I taught him to wait for me to throw it, and he loves it!

My opinion is that it needs to be taught correctly. It is a good way for the dog to learn self-control, and can be a good workout for both human and dog

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:39 am

DoggoneGA wrote: No, the dog should NOT always win! In fact, the dog needs to be taught this is YOUR game, not his and you can end it anytime you like.

Depending on the toy, I don't bother if the dog ends up with they toy or me. If my dog has been well behaved while playing, I will let them have the toy when I walk away from the game. I haven't finished the game because my dog hasn't been playing nice, I have finished it because I have other things to do so why should I punish my dog when they he has behaved himself. I leave the toy out with him, unless they toy isn't suitable but that is rare.

I normally make my dogs tuggy toys although they do have others. I make them out of fleece and they are very soft of if I get hit with one it doesn't hurt and they are washable.

mum24dog · Post by **mum24dog** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:01 am

Mattie wrote:
DoggoneGA wrote: No, the dog should NOT always win! In fact, the dog needs to be taught this is YOUR game, not his and you can end it anytime you like.
Depending on the toy, I don't bother if the dog ends up with they toy or me.

I'm not a believer in "always" and "never" rules, especially where training is concerned. Dogs understand context far better than they are often given credit for.

Our BC has a tuggy specifically for training. He isn't allowed to have it at other times. Removing it just means that training is over and he can go and do his own thing - a release rather than a punishment.

There are always other tuggies around that I'll play with with all the dogs at times. I'm not bothered who gets them - it's usually the dog because I get bored.

With all of them leave it/get it is part of the game - not to show them who's boss, but just to ensure that they will leave something when I need it. It's training to me but just part of the fun to them.

Pam

Noobs · Post by **Noobs** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:33 pm

Thank you, everyone, for your input. It's all been very helpful!

I'm going to work with Murphy on "drop" and "give" a little more before I try it. He's pretty good already (he'll even drop stuff he's picked up on the street with the intention of eating it!) but I really want it to be reliable.

catrinsparkles · Post by **catrinsparkles** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:28 pm

I didn't play tug with Tonks when she was a small puppy as i wanted to see how much of an excitable dog she was first. Once i knew she knew the "off" command i started to introduce it but dropped the toy and walked off if she ever growled.

This was because my OH has three boys, they are not likely to know the difference between a playing growl and a "your standing on my tail" growl.

Even though we played it with our dogs as children i think we were lucky to have calm dogs. (We did have a not calm dog in the early 70's when i was preschool age, but he was PTS due to biting us all). I wouldn't advise it as a game that should be played often, after all, during these types of games a young puppy is having fun but is also testing out their strength compared to others. That's fine if you have a calm dog and are going to train and socialise them well - but not if your attitude is likely to lead to the dog having conflicting signals and the possiblity of the dog leading a chaotic lifestyle, or may lead to the dog gradually challenging your status as leader.

catrinsparkles · Post by **catrinsparkles** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:28 pm

I didn't play tug with Tonks when she was a small puppy as i wanted to see how much of an excitable dog she was first. Once i knew she knew the "off" command i started to introduce it but dropped the toy and walked off if she ever growled.

This was because my OH has three boys, they are not likely to know the difference between a playing growl and a "your standing on my tail" growl.

Even though we played it with our dogs as children i think we were lucky to have calm dogs. (We did have a not calm dog in the early 70's when i was preschool age, but he was PTS due to biting us all). I wouldn't advise it as a game that should be played often, after all, during these types of games a young puppy is having fun but is also testing out their strength compared to others. That's fine if you have a calm dog and are going to train and socialise them well - but not if your attitude is likely to lead to the dog having conflicting signals and the possiblity of the dog leading a chaotic lifestyle, or may lead to the dog gradually challenging your status as leader.