New dog won't sit, attention span thing?

[magnoliasouth]

Hi there! I've been a long time member/lurker, but have only posted a couple of times.

Let me first explain the background, so you can get a sense of her personality to help me figure out what to do.

We adopted a dog the other day. She is a border collie mix, which we named Mia. She is very smart, as borders normally are. In January of this year, she was found in a neighborhood and went to a shelter where she was penned until just the other day. They believed she was not housebroken, but she is. Another thing worth noting is that she knows the difference between toys and things that aren't toys. It would seem that she was owned before. She is very friendly and is balanced emotionally. She has no serious problem behaviors such as chewing, nervousness, barking and so forth.

The problem however stems from her attention span, I believe. I've had dogs all my life and teaching the simple sit command is always very easy. She however has me stumped. As I raise a treat up she simply looks away and loses interest. There is no making her sit either, not that I agree with a force sit anyway.

I try grabbing her attention again by waving a treat and she looks back at me, but when I raise it again, she (again) loses interest. She's an in-the-now type personality and I've never experienced this problem. I've tried moving the treat in different ways, above her head, on top of her nose, etc., but she just seems to decide that if I don't give it to her, 'oh well no biggie'.

She loves her toys, but I get the same response with her toys too. I thought that perhaps she just wasn't that food oriented, which is rare in shelter dogs, but evidently it's simple no-interest. Period.

Do you all have suggestions?

ETA: I meant to say she's probably about 10-11 months old, if it matters.

[Nettle]

Well, you've hardly had her a moment and you know nothing about each other.

She may have some pain eg hip pain that makes 'sit' a miserable experience. She may have been put into 'sit' and then had something nasty done to her. It could be that treats have been associated with bad things. It could be that type of treat.

At this stage of your relationship, there is absolutely no need for her to 'sit' on command. In your place, I would focus on lots of nice things to do together, especially walks, so that you learn about each other and bond.

We'd love a photo or two when you have the time

[gwd]

is it possible that her previous home was a family with a young child and that she was not allowed to take food? it seems from your description that when you're using the treat as a lure for the behavior, she's looking away. maybe she is looking away from the raised food because that's what the rules were before?

can you try using a toy that she's excited about as your lure and see if that works.......then check back if it doesn't and we can try something else.

[tylerthegiant]

There are a variety of reasons why she's not being lured for the sit, however I would do one or more of several things to get the sit.

Try capturing the sit. When she sits naturally, mark it, and give a big old jackpot treat of whatever she does like, just toss it on the ground. Chicken, cheese, a lot of something really great, so she'll think to herself, this is awesome, I need to do this more often! After capturing a few times then add the cue, then see if you can get the sit from her.

I'd also do NILF with this dog, there are things she does like, going outside, walks, continuing to play, dinnertime, petting something. Find that one or more commands right now she's good at (even if it's accidental-is she comfortable with eye contact-you have a "watch me") and make it the gateway to all good things. Then once she finds YOU reinforcing as the gatekeeper to all good things I have a feeling you'll find she knows and can do a lot more than she's letting on. Keep it simple, and really set her up for success with something super easy so she'll gain confidence in her new environment.

[magnoliasouth]

When she sits naturally, mark it, and give a big old jackpot treat of whatever she does like, just toss it on the ground. Chicken, cheese, a lot of something really great, so she'll think to herself, this is awesome, I need to do this more often! After capturing a few times then add the cue, then see if you can get the sit from her. ... I'd also do NILF with this dog, there are things she does like, going outside, walks, continuing to play, dinnertime, petting something. Find that one or more commands right now she's good at (even if it's accidental-is she comfortable with eye contact-you have a "watch me") and make it the gateway to all good things. Then once she finds YOU reinforcing as the gatekeeper to all good things I have a feeling you'll find she knows and can do a lot more than she's letting on. Keep it simple, and really set her up for success with something super easy so she'll gain confidence in her new environment.

Excellent! I agree that she can do more than she's appearing to. She is incredibly smart. She doesn't mind eye contact at all and I could swear that she's reading my mind when she looks at me. lol! She's just a joy to have.

I wondered if the approach I needed to take was the capturing like you said. I agree with that. I just wish they could tell you what they're thinking! lol!

Oh and gwd, you may be right about the previous owner teaching her about the food. It's really hard to tell. Oh and I did try it with toys, but to no avail. She loves toys though!

[tylerthegiant]

Some dogs too are very respectful naturally about "possession." If it's in your hands, it's yours, you have ownership of it and she may find it's impolite to take it from you. I don't know if you drop the reward on the ground if she'd be more likely to take it (of course that doesn't help with luring-but just a thought)? The marker is the important thing as a secondary reinforcer. May be you could train a marker for her too and it might be helpful, if you haven't already. Whatever your marker is (yes, good, a click with the clicker) and reinforce the heck of out it. High value, jackpot treats on the ground. Again and again and again over several days just to make the association between the marker and the primary reinforcer. Sometimes too with luring you have kind of mess with your hand placement to figure out works best. I've found with some dogs it's easiest with the sit to lure with the treat between the thumb and forefinger with your palm facing up rather than down. Don't have any clue why this sometimes works better, but sometimes it does. Just some other things to think about.

She sounds like a doll! Keep in mind too, if you just picked her up you're still in the honeymoon phase. You find some behavioral issues crop up the more secure she feels in her new environment. Hope not, but it's possible and you don't want to blindsided by it.

[jacksdad]

.... I'd also do NILF with this dog....

I would actually disagree.

There is nothing wrong with say "I want me dog to site while I set his food bowl down" or "I want my dog to sit while I open the door so he doesn't drag me out" that kind of thing. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. teaching the dog how to live in your home is important.

However, the narrative and application of those things via NILF is not something I encourage personally. I find the narrative (why a dogs is doing something and how NILF will supposedly solve it) can be flat out wrong, and detrimental to a dog/human bond.

More than anything else, dogs NEED to feel safe with us. They NEED to know they will have their needs met. NILF can get in the way of that.

you can teach manners, impulse control, etc all without the framework of NILF.

[jacksdad]

I agree that she can do more than she's appearing to. She is incredibly smart. She doesn't mind eye contact at all and I could swear that she's reading my mind when she looks at me. lol! She's just a joy to have.

I wondered if the approach I needed to take was the capturing like you said. I agree with that. I just wish they could tell you what they're thinking! lol!

Oh and gwd, you may be right about the previous owner teaching her about the food. It's really hard to tell. Oh and I did try it with toys, but to no avail. She loves toys though!

just take things slow. you just got her, let her feel safe, secure and get to know you before you worry too much about her sit, stay, down skills.

not "listening", taking food, playing with toys, all signs of stress. you maybe the most gentle, loving person and she may very well have landed on all four paws coming to live with you, jackpot, doggy lottery won. But it will take some time for her to realize that. maybe a day, maybe a couple weeks, maybe a couple months. it just all depends on her.

just give her some space....in a very short time you will be wondering what the worry was.

[emmabeth]

I am with Jacksdad here, I also dislike NILIF, particularly in this sort of situation.

NILIF or, Nothing In Life Is Free does very often end up with owners developing very unfair expectations of their dogs behaviour, after all, what you and your dog should have is a relationship and in any good relationship.. LOTS of things are 'free'!

I find the framework of NILIF very very rigid which leads to people not thinking, and actually can turn it into abuse, for example, asking a dog to sit for a few seconds so that you can put a food bowl down without having it knocked out of your hand, or a dog jumping up and bashing his head into your nose, thats a good thing....

Demanding a long drawn out sit stay for many minutes or longer, as part of a NILIF program can create HUGE amounts of stress for the dog, and also is setting the dog up for failure.

Look at the human example too - kids who have to do chores for some rewards, but get other good stuff for free tend to be pretty happy well balanced kids. So yeah they have to clean the car to earn $10, but they can have a hug for nothing - they might earn their pocket money by cleaning the yard, but they still get fed each day and clothed each day for nothing..

Kids who are made to feel like they have to do some unpleasant or pointless chore for EVERYTHING however, turn into very dull depressed kids who resent the parent and don't want to really spend time with them or ask them for anything...

So we prefer not to recommend NILIF, lots of us have seen how it can be used wrongly far too often and its just not worth the risk!

[tylerthegiant]

Well thank you jacksdad and emmabeth, you've given me something else to think about.

I think my understanding of NILF is different than yours. I see it as making yourself relevant to the dog, which I felt was appropriate here since the dog from OPs description did not seem particularly soft or nervous, just that in these new set of circumstances has not bonded with the owner yet and decided the OP is relevant yet. I think of NILF as a good way to create a bond in that it creates a partnership. I don't think of NILF as showing dominance (controlling resources) or leadership (because it's mutually beneficial) or even creating rules (although it does that) but as making the owner the most reinforcing thing in the environment. I don't know about NILF as a protocol or a framework as you do, so I didn't see it as rigid. It creates that much abuse in it usage? People really ask for a five minuet down before giving the dog it's food right off the bat, not working up to it and stressing out the dog? Routinely? I guess I never considered that because I think any training method can be misused and abused and didn't think of NILF as being particularly potentially harmful.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, but I would like to learn more about NILF as a framework and it's potential pitfalls, can you guys point me in the right direction?

[jacksdad]

I think my understanding of NILF is different than yours.

that is also part of the problem with NILF programs, there really is no "central/common definition". No one owns it, so it gets defined however each person thinks it should be. So it is possible for two people to both say "I use NILF", but it to mean entirely different things to them.

A common explanation of what of NILF is runs along the lines of .......you need to be top "dog", the boss, and your dog needs to learn that it is lower than a snail's belly and everyone and everything it higher in "rank" than it. Your dog needs earn everything...from dinner to pets to sitting at your feet. If you give your dog anything for free, it will think it's in charge and start misbehaving. while that is an extreme description, it is unfortunately a quite common explanation of NILF.

But dogs are social animals, and when you do a NILF in this extreme, but common way, you actually can create a "barrier" between you and your dog. social animals have rituals, and behaviors designed to bring members of the group together, to defuse tensions, prevent aggression, promote and strengthen bonds etc. in the typical way NILF is directed to be done, all this normal and correct interactions are discouraged.

It is actually healthy and good for your dog to be able to come up to you randomly and ask for some attention. maybe a quick game of fetch, a quick pet, or to jump on the couch (if you allow that) and curl up next to you.

Yes, we don't want a dog that is demanding, lacks impulse control, knows how to get a long with humans etc. But all that can be achieved without making your dog earn every little thing in life.

It sounds like you don't follow that extreme definition.

[tylerthegiant]

Nope, you are correct. I don't look at NILF in that extreme but I appreciate the points you guys made because I think it's an important distinction to make, because if there's subjectivity there some people may interpret it in a way that leads to abuse, and I obviously wasn't very clear in my post. If many people are prone to that definition, or view NILF that way I think it would be beneficial for me to words things in a different way.

I could talk about "hot" reinforcers, reinforcers that one knows a dog thinks is important and using those to one's advantage to create a bond and a partnership with the dog.

I adopted 3 out of my four dogs, one at 12 weeks, one at 10 weeks, and one at 15 mnths. Two of my dogs are extremely soft, Mia is so sensitive I have to capture behaviors to train them because she completely shuts down at the most mild aversive, withholding the expected reward when I try to train a more complicated behavior (she does okay with lures). That's all it takes and she's slinking away. Apollo quits offering behaviors if I just look at him wrong. He just sits there, hesitant do anything in case he gets it wrong. I would never use even my interpretation of NILF with dogs that sensitive.

The last two, my danes, JJ is a "what's in it for me" kind of dog. Unless I am the most reinforcing thing on the planet she will always do what she wants to do if she stops to consider it. My version of NILF keeps her from considering it, because I am conditioned to always the most reinforcing thing around, not whatever else is going on, I am the giver of wonderful things, every day, all the time. She is not a soft dog at all, negative attention is reinforcing to this dog. With Lucas (he reminds me the most of the OPs dog from the description) was actually very biddable once I became relevant to him, but he was an outdoor dog who lived on a ranch, so he did his own work, alone, with no outside help and saw no benefit to complying with anything I might expect from him. I am not militant about it, but I do think that NILF as I understand it has helped with those two immensely.

But I see I should be careful how I express such things. May be I should coin a new acroynym, SURLILAF (some things you really like in life aren't free).

[Dibbythedog]

Sorry I have not read all the replies.
You have a had your dog a very short time and she might be to anxious or stressed to learn sit or to concentrate and focus.

I adopted a young tiny chi x Libby a couple of months ago and she doesnt like to sit for some reason and as she has a had a lot to learn in other areas , I haven't bothered with it . I dont feel its that important for her to do it at the moment.
If you want your dog to do something to earn a treat , perhaps you could ask for something something she is happy and comnfortable doing .
Alison