Are GSD in pain?

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Lara575

Are GSD in pain?

Post by Lara575 »

Hi all

As you know I decided on the GSD but could not find one with the right structure so I decided to not get one. There is no point in looking at other breeds as I'm in love with the GSD and lime Nettle once said if a GSD is what my heart sings for get one. I'm not going to let bad structure stop me. I am going to get a GSD obviously working line would be to much for a first time GSD owner so I wanted to ask about structure again.

Even though the sloped look is not nice to look at neither is it right that there bred like that . but they are bred like that and showline or petline would be more suited to me but a massive amount of breeders both on the UK KC and champdogs are all German Showline dogs. So I want a GSD but it looks like it will be one of these types of GSD what I want to ask is if there is any scientific evidence that a healthy German Showline GSD with a Slope is in pain because of the way there bred?

Are they in pain and is there any evidence?

I asked a good friend of my dad's whose a vet and is also a GSD lover and he said that even though he hates the way there bred now and wishes they were banned from the show world not just crufts there is no evidence that the slope they have makes them in pain. The only proof iv seen from being a vet for the past 45yrs is that hip dysplasia is more in the breed than ever before as well as elbow dysplasia. Unless there is damage to the hips then a healthy showline is not in pain they are just like any other normal dog just bred to have a Slope.
Erica
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Re: Are GSD in pain?

Post by Erica »

Is there such a thing as a healthy dog with a naturally sloped back? I'm not convinced. This is my opinion based on the things I've learned about structure and function. I am still new at this so I am open to being proven wrong! I have a lot more to learn in the subject of functional anatomy but I find it fascinating.

First, you have to define "a dog with a sloped back." Is it a dog whose back is, at a natural stance, parallel to the ground, but which slopes when placed in a GSD style show stack? Because there will be very few dogs whose backs won't slope in that situation.

Is a "sloped back" a roached back - a back which, when the dog stands naturally, is hunched upwards? This is easily seen in many sighthounds, and in some lines of GSD (such as the German show lines you mentioned, though many people will talk of differences between East German and West German). Why aren't sighthounds called out for this? If you look at them next to each other, you can see the differences. Sighthounds with roached backs typically have a back which is level for a short while behind the shoulder, then gently arches up near the end of the ribcage and back down to the hips. GSDs with roached backs typically have a back which has one of the following: a distinct angle that sharply slopes the back downward; a back which immediately curves up slightly after the shoulderand then curves down for the rest of the spine; or a back which immediately begins curving downward after the shoulder.

A sighthound's curved back is positioned in a way that allows flexibility in the spine, aiding them in their extreme gait when they run full-out.

A German Shepherd's curved back doesn't aid in any such movement and doesn't allow for as strong forward motion as a dog with a straight back can manage.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, a sighthound's hips are still above the point of their shoulder. A roach-backed GSD has hips that are barely level with the elbows. This will make it difficult for them to move their hind legs at any gait, causing abnormal movement that will likely put extra strain on various muscles, leading to a dog that more easily accumulates injury.

If by "sloped back" we mean a dog who, when standing naturally on flat ground, has hips lower than their shoulders, again that dog will not be able to move freely and easily, and their hind limbs will not be able to do much to aid movement. Usually, a back sloped this way is a result of bad hind limb construction in the first place. This is very bad, as dogs already carry approximately 60% of their weight in their forelegs. If the hind legs don't function properly, not only will they be more prone to injury, but the front limbs will have to work harder to keep the dog moving. This predisposes the front legs to injury as well.

You mentioned the rise of hip dysplasia in the breed. Hip dysplasia may have a genetic component, but it also can be managed or aggravated by the environment - which includes the rest of the body. If the dog's body is otherwise built well, a dog who is genetically predisposed to hip dysplasia may not have many symptoms. A dog whose body is not built well will not be able to support that hip as well as the healthy dog.

Additionally, some tests for hip dysplasia are not as diagnostic on young dogs - they may test "good" at 18 months old but be terribly affected by 8 years old. source "Since HD is a chronic, progressive disease, the older the dog, the more accurate the diagnosis of HD (or lack of HD)." My dog's breeder prefers the PennHip evaluation and I must say that I agree; here is an article on it. PennHip scores remain fairly consistent after 16 weeks of age. source

TL;DR: Is a dog with a dysfunctional back automatically in pain? Not necessarily. However, the abnormalities will contribute to a dog who is more easily injured or who will begin to "break down" at an earlier age than a dog with healthy structure, and therefore IMO a dog with a roached back (minus the loin roach of sighthounds) or sloped back when standing naturally should not be encouraged to be bred.

Edit: Pain, IMO, isn't the only thing to consider. Quality of life is the main concern. When I had pneumonia, breathing was just difficult, not painful. That doesn't mean it was pleasant or that I wouldn't mind getting it again! I do not want pneumonia again. A sloped back will, at the very least, make movement difficult. It doesn't have to be painful to be undesirable.

We know that a level, parallel-to-the-ground back is a part of healthy structure. Can you find anything proving that this divergence from that natural structure ISN'T bad?
Delta, standard poodle, born 6/30/14
Shalista
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Re: Are GSD in pain?

Post by Shalista »

Going to school for HUMAN physio so not sure how much of this applies but...

When humans are forced to compensate for abnormal structure it definitely does cause problems and complicates due to the strain on the compensating structures. Bodies are really wonderful things designed to work a certain way. If something goes wrong some structures can compensate but the strain isn't healthy.

Definitely dittoing Erica, are they in pain? maybe, but they certainly aren't as functional as if they had the appropriate structure. Life will probably be harder for them.
Baxter (AKA Bax, Chuckles, Chuckster) Rat Terrier, born 01/16/13
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Nettle
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Re: Are GSD in pain?

Post by Nettle »

I am often struck by the fact that I never seem to see a GSD with its mouth closed. I wonder if this is due to stress or low-level pain?
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