Errol - has met TWO new people..

Share your experience and tell us how using positive reinforcement training methods has changed yours and your dogs' lives.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

And did not freak out, bark at or generally act terrified, of either of them!

Bit of back history on this - Errol is a Tibetan Terrier and he is a suspicious natured dog and his second fear stage kicked in at around 8 months old, suddenly some people were SCARY. Oh my, they were very scary and he had to SHOUT at them a lot, and if they didnt listen... he would growl at them and even bite them.

Unfortunately at this stage of his life he met some people who frightened him. Firstly my Dad who on meeting Errol tried to lure him close enough to touch when Errol was displaying quite blatant 'im worried dont touch me' language... (and I was saying 'hes worried dont touch him' but you cant tell Dads... they dont listen!). and then when Errol was provoked by being stared at and cornered, into barking furiously... my Dad (in his 60s.. behave's like he is 6..) barked back at him.

Well done Daddy. Thankyou for that.

So then (asides from avoiding my Dad a lot!) Errol met a friend of mine who is quite tall and loud and a bit.... erratic and he wasnt sure about her at all and its taken five or six meetings with her before hes come round (which he now has! :) ) and realised that her behaviour means nothing... Shes another that would shout back at him and look quite stary and threatening (until i told her not to).

After this I then had to take him on holiday with me, with mixed success. He met three loooooooovely people, my friends who I stayed with... H, and L & T, and their dogs, and got on brilliantly there... But he also had a few scary experiences with 'people coming out of nowhere in the dark' and also sadly with H's (now ex) partner J who is rather 'i must dominate dogs because I am a man blah blah'... Oh and strange furry four legged things with BLUE bodies.. (horses with turn out rugs on).

So I was beginning to despair a little that Errol would always be a barky nervy pesty sort of dog. But I should have had more faith in him and in myself.

Since the holiday visitors have been limited here to those he already knows and likes, with the exception of my scary friend E, who we worked with. She visits a lot and ignored him and kept a lid on her rather exuberant nature and hes been great and come on really well with her. So much so we (me, my OH, Errol and Kelda) all went round to her flat for a takeaway recently and Errol was excellent! (Kelda was too but shes a princess when visiting!)


Sooooo fast forward to this week - Errol has met a mutal friend of a friend of ours.... C and our friend M came a-visiting, unannounced.. C has dogs anyway and isnt the type to go loopy just because Errol is fluffy (which has been a huge part of the problem, because hes small and fluffy people do stare and go OOOOOOOOOH ISNT HE SWEEET, which they usually take back when he explodes into furious barking!).... Errol was PERFECT with C...

Approached politely, got a scritchy on his chest, tootled off to find a toy, came back for another scritchy... behaved as if he had known C all his life! No barking, no hiding, no growling!

Then today a friend of my OH's came to visit - now this was a tricky test because although errol has met her when he was only a few weeks old hes not seen her since. OH's friend has had gender re-assignment surgery/drugs and so... for a dog this can be rather confusing with the hormone drugs she takes... and having some female and some more masculine traits (shes very very tall!), which for errol is something he finds scary (its men hes scared of mostly not women).

Anyway once the initial 'woohoo visitors!' dance had settled down and we were all drinking a cup of tea in the kitchen, Errol came through with Rocky to say hi.... and again he was perfect.. a little too cuddley for M's taste as she likes dogs but is unfortunately allergic to them, but no barking... no freaking out, just 'hi hellooooo i like youuuuu'.

I am soooo pleased with him! Also my sister has proofed him against 'people with bowling balls instead of heads' - ie motorcycle helmets .... I think maybe in a few weeks time we are going to see if we can find some people wtih BEARDS .

I highly suspect that had I had him from 6 - 8 weeks old we could have cracked most of this before it became a problem. But we didnt... he was 15 weeks!

So - management is a good thing, and people who will do as you ask are a brilliant thing (both C and M did not stare in his eyes or particularly acknowledge him till he sought them out).

Early socialisation would have been better and avoiding introducing a pup in his fearful stage to a muppet like my Dad.... well I won't be doing that again! :lol:
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Leigha
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:02 am

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by Leigha »

YAY!!
Fundog
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by Fundog »

Emmabeth, it is especially encouraging for all of us to hear that even the best of us (you included) have issues to sort out with our dogs, and that even the most experienced of dog owners have dogs who are not perfect. Thanks for sharing! :D
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
wvvdiup1
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:31 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by wvvdiup1 »

Emmabeth,

Fundog has pretty much said what I was going to say. When I got Karma, I had a lot of issues to deal with her. Through time, patience, and a lot of loving care, I worked with her to solve these problems. Besides her unfortunate problem of not eating, I have an almost perfect dog if there is such a dog.

Until recently. Just before it got dark here, I took Karma for her evening walk. A couple of my neighbors were walking their dogs and we were no further than 30 feet from one another when Karma decided to charge at them. Karma knows these neighbors and their dogs. Neither one of their dogs did anything that would signal tension or aggression because I had my eyes on all dogs. When I caught my dog's "attack behavior," I turned and went the other way to break the tension between the dogs. Needless to say, I went back to retrain Karma, however, now I don't have help from my neighbors, friends, and family, because they are scared of her. You are fortunate to have friends and family who will help you even though they had been barked at, nearly bitten, or just growled at when they came to visit you. But like you, I will not give up on this dog and I will work even harder if that's what it takes to help my dog and solve her problems!

I'm glad you shared your story and am glad to hear that Erol is doing well!
Image
Image
"Common sense is instinct. Enough of it is genius." -author unknown
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

I thought I should share this as unless you read EVERY post where I mention my own dogs it can come across as if I have nooooo problems at all.

Thats about as far from the truth as you could possibly get - whilst many of my dogs 'issues' and hang ups are fixed or we have learned to manage them, I have five dogs... and if it were not for the problems some of them have had in the past, I would never have learned the things I know now nor would I be interested in learning more!

So yep, me and my lot - we arent perfect and every new situation has the potential to bring up something else that needs dealing with or monitoring..

Until my OH moved in for example, my dogs had never met a trans-sexual person who had had an op and was taking the necessary hormone therapy. He has a couple of friends who are TS and so thats a new thing to intro my dogs to and not one every dog comes across (or if they do you may not be aware).

My deerhound Kelda was very afraid of OH's friends and they have really kindly spent time tossing treats to her and not staring at her (they are geeks and whilst not dog geeks, like most of geek-kind... they follow instructions to the letter which is awesome!) and now shes fine with them. They understood that it was the conflicting messages the dogs were picking up that worried them and werent offended in the slightest (plus my adult dogs love them to bits :lol:)

Rocky used to be very dog aggressive and its him who pushed me towards learning about dogs really, when the harsh punishment methods I was being advised to use not only didnt work but made me feel awful using them. These days whilst he is not bestest buddies with every dog he meets, he is predictable, he can be caused to tolerate dogs, if introduced to them correctly, even in his home, and we can have him off lead playing with his ball around the exact sorts of dogs hes scared of and originally would have attacked.

Dilly is an ever changing bundle of neurotic behaviours and likes to throw me a curve-ball every so often - he is very sound phobic and he generalises a lesson to mean 'is scary' VERY quickly with sometimes just one experience. I do blame this in part on him being neutered before he was mature, in part on his ancestry (mostly his working bearded collie grandfather), and finally - on me putting him into a stupid situation when he was young and he was badly frightened.

Some of his 'stuff' we have fixed, some we have learned to handle, and as fast as we do the little ..... delightful boy.... develops new ones! His latest is hiding under the bed when its time to come downstairs when I get up (as then i shut the bedroom door). I still havent pinpointed what exactly the issue is but now we have some strategies in place to fix this. On the whole, though he sounds like a nightmare, he is an absolutely adorable dog to live with, hes a cuddlemonster and loves any and every human he meets and you could take him anywhere. He is a happy lad and so we manage his stealing.. and if he wants to hide he can if that makes him feel safe (lordy it sounds like hes really unhappy but he isnt hes just weird!).

And finally theres Abby who is 14 now and i never have fixed her fear of doorways and long 'stick' shaped items, nor her tendancy to munch people if they hurt her. Bad trainer? Maybe... but I feel that shes happy as she is, it causes us no problems and is a good example of the phrase 'just because we CAN do a thing.... does not always mean we should'. She finds the process of training very stressful and does not enjoy it one bit - I have no doubt she associates this with her previous owners (who i do know a fair bit about). Even when there are rewards she really likes on offer, she gets so stressed out and fearful, she is honestly happier the way she is.

Of course if her little niggly behaviours were dangerous or posed a threat to anyone, or made her worse - we would fix them, but so far in 5 years they have never gotten worse, have if anything improved slightly as she trusts us now (though she will still bite if she thinks you are going to hurt her, or do hurt her, its never even a bruising bite, its an 'hey... you... stop that' bite, reserved only for when you are manhandling her body parts!). I think it would be deeply unfair to rock her world now (or even at 9 years old whe we got her).

She did learn via clicker training, to give a paw for a treat - however now this is all she does and if that doesnt work, she gets extremely upset and fearful. And you cant capture any other behaviour from her... because she sleeps on the sofa, eats her tea, runs outside, er and has bum scritches and thats it - shes been so badly abused, thats the only word for it, by people using very harsh punitive methods that she wont, she would not DARE offer you any other behaviour!

Poor Orange dog - still don't feel toooo bad for her - we evict other dogs off the sofa for her (she cant ask them to move, she just stands there), hold doors open for her (she cant push a door open! she wouldnt dare :( ), pander to her every whim and even give her cake sometimes (not too often!). She has a chilled out retirement now!

Sooo... thats my doggles and theres a lot more I could say besides - they are not perfect and neither am i, but they are teaching me so many valuable lessons about dogs and how they think and work - and what happens when people 'break' them.... and how to undo that and when its fair to try and when its better to accomodate and tolerate and manage... I wouldnt be without them, not for any money in the world!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by Mattie »

Well done Errol, for being such a brave boy :D

Fundog wrote:Emmabeth, it is especially encouraging for all of us to hear that even the best of us (you included) have issues to sort out with our dogs, and that even the most experienced of dog owners have dogs who are not perfect. Thanks for sharing! :D
Fundog our greatest teachers are our dogs, it is them that have taught us what we know now and pass on to others, we learnt the hard way to listen to our dogs and the best way to teach them and help them through their problems that others have causes.

We talk about managing problems, dogs can learn as much by managing them as by teaching, managing also becomes part of our lives so we don't see it as managing our dogs but is part of our daily lives we get so used to it.

Who wants a perfect dog? I wouldn't, they would be so boring and predicable, I want my dogs to be obedient but also to keep their character and personality, I have seen to many dogs that have lost these, they are dull and have no interest in life, just plod along with their head and tail down, I feel so sorry for these dogs.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

Errol has now met a further three new people...

Firstly nice lady Faye who came round to see my cornsnakes, he thought she was smashing and wasnt at all wary - again we intro'd after she'd been in our house a little while so we were not battling with the 'omg theres a guest here' excitement and she didnt stare at him (again a dog person, not being a sucker for a cute hairy doglet).

Then the other night he met our neighbours, mum and daughter, IN THE DARK!... and they DID look at him and he was a little wary, but after a very quiet wuff he came to say hello and rapidly made friends!

Since I last posted I have only been able to set up the 'meet a stranger in the street oh no its someone we know' situation twice but i DO think it has helped a lot.

Still keeping him away from people I know will stare or shout at him though!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
User avatar
***Melissa***
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:30 am
Location: Mafikeng, South Africa

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by ***Melissa*** »

Awww Em, that's so nice. :D I'm so proud of Errol :D
On behalf of Errol: Thank you for being such a great doggy-mommy & for all your patience :wink: :D :D *(although I don't even know him, I'm sure that's how he feels)*
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

Mmm... thats nice of you, actually i think hes currently thinking 'i hate my mommy she reads my mind and thwarts my evil plans' (He has just decided he might try to get one of the other dogs off the sofa by going and getting in his face and growling at him, what it actually achieved was a time out. Now getting murderous looks!)
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
User avatar
***Melissa***
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:30 am
Location: Mafikeng, South Africa

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by ***Melissa*** »

:lol: :lol: I'm sure he'll thank you later...when he gets used to 'mommy reading my mind' :)
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

Go Errol, Big treats and kissingtons today...

He came to visit my friends house,hes only been there once before as shes moved (he knows her and her dog Leela and her OH well, they are Uncle Maffyoo and Aunty Candy and love him to bits, Leela.. is less enamoured :lol:, think 'you can sniff my butt, but don't you DARE try to play with me you foolish floofy freakdog!').

Our other friends were there too, and hes never met either of them, but bar a small woof-ette at Frank who has the audacity to be male!!!! (how very dare he), he was great, took treats from Carissa, sat when asked, downed when asked, mostly respected Leelas 'get stuffed you horrid little turd' growls (shes not scared of him at all, she just thinks hes a totally pointless creature :lol: very much the grumpy old dame she is!) after a brief (and exceedingly ridiculous yet polite) 'play bow dance', where he goes into a play bow and then sort of bounces back and forth going 'play wi' meeeeee play wi' meeeeeee aww go ooooooooooon' (I will have to film that, its hilariously desperate!).

Then we went outside for a ciggie and Errol came wiht us, and then Frank and Carissa came out, and even though it was dark and Frank was now stood up rather than sat down he STILL didnt go nuts or be scaredy-dog.

He also was scared, slightly of a odd bouncey cat toy thing, but just watched it quietly and didn't resort to shouting at it at all. He is also now pretty much cactus proof, sniffed the cactus on the floor and got too close and poked his nose on it and didnt feel the need to shout at that! (He once spent a good 30 minutes stalking and growling and shouting at another friends cactus after it 'bit' him!)

So all in all a very very good little floofy booboodog tonight! :D:D
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
Fundog
Posts: 3874
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:31 am
Location: A little gambling town in the high desert

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by Fundog »

:lol: :lol: That's great Em... bring Errol on out to the desert U.S. He will learn very quickly that cacti are NOT the least bit intimidated by hairy, fluff-dogs telling them off. In fact, our cacti like to sneak up on, and stalk, the doggies! :shock: Cacti are not at all nice to step on either, poor little woofers. :(
If an opportunity comes to you in life, say yes first, even if you don't know how to do it.
emmabeth
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: West Midlands
Contact:

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by emmabeth »

Argh. setback yesterday, lovely people came to deliver something I had won (superduper light unit for a marine fishtank, though i dont yet have a marine fishtank..... :lol:)....

Didnt introduce them to the other dogs but Errol was with us in the kitchen and I let him greet the people, asking them to not look at him or speak to him.... unfortunately the man was very similar to my dad, and had a beard too.... and Errol shouted at him and before i could step in, the man 'stomped' his feet towards Errol, bent over him, stared adn pointed his finger in errols face. I extracted errol mere moments before he snapped at this guys fingers.

IM SO annoyed that I let this happen, these people have dogs so I sort of thought they would have a bit of common sense (and to be fair, his wife was spot on and lovely).... gah!

Took him out with us today and did some 'see the people have the sweeties' work in supermarket carpark which went fairly well and then he came with for a cuppa at my friends house for more 'out and about good experiences'. Still kicking myself though!
West Midlands based 1-2-1 Training & Behaviour Canine Consultant
User avatar
***Melissa***
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:30 am
Location: Mafikeng, South Africa

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by ***Melissa*** »

Em, you KNOW I'm not an expert or anything, but YOU were the one telling ME not to beat myself up over set backs (when I was sick), so now I'm returning it :D : Don't beat yourself up over what happend with the delivery man, anyway, the delivery man is also to blame, BECAUSE he stomped his feet, bent over him, etc.

And congrats on you & Errol's other achievements - WELL DONE, that's really great :D
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams
User avatar
Mattie
Posts: 5872
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Errol - has met TWO new people..

Post by Mattie »

Someone once said that you can't cure stupid, you did ask him, stupid ignored you, open a bottle of wine and chill. :lol: You replaced that bad experience with several good ones, I doubt it will have done any damage to Errol apart from that type of man. Tommy never accepted that type of man in the 12.5 years we had her and as far as we knew, she never had a bad experience with one, it must have happened in the 18 months before we got her.
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/PIXIE.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Nethertumbleweed/th_PIXIE.jpg[/img][/url]
Post Reply