May 1st episode - Odom Family

[Salomé]

Hi,
Long-time lurker but first time poster. I had a question about last night's episode. The family initially had 4 dogs: Rufus, Jo Jo, Wolfgang the Presa puppy, and a black lab (lab mix?). The family gave away Jo Jo so he'd be in a better home, and the whole rest of the show focused on Victoria's attempts to train Rufus and Wolfgang.

My question: what happened to the lab? At no time was he shown while the other 2 dogs were being taught techniques to prevent them from getting into fights. At no time was he shown when the other 2 dogs were being taught how to walk on a leash without pulling or during interactions with the twins. Did the owners decide to give away the lab as well???

On a side note, I'm shocked at whichever Odom decided willy nilly to get a Presa without (very clearly) knowing anything about the breed. Presa Canarios are not run of the mill, common dogs that one can find easily, so who would get one without doing even a modicum of research into the breed? Even a 5 minute read should have told them that it was not the ideal dog for a household like theirs was before Victoria stepped in! But gosh, that puppy was gorgeous!

I wish Victoria would do return visits, like she used to do for some of her UK shows, where she'd come back to a family a year later to see how the dog had progressed. I'd love to see how the adult Wolfgang was doing and if he was getting along with Rufus. I have to admit, there are far too many families where I suspect that, a year later, things would return exactly the way they were before Victoria's visit.

S-

[RoseTyler]

I was thinking the black lab was just fine, like they didn't really need help with it? Ya know? Also, I like the Victoria returning, however, I think it would be a great idea if they did it for a season finale show...like the one where she answered video questions. I want her to go back to the "witchy" house. hahaha

[doxielover]

One would hope that breeders of such dogs as the Presa Canario would want to educate those purchasing their puppies. Obviously this is not the case. A google search of this breed gives a lot of information for them. The wife in this episode didn't seem to realize how big these dogs get. Really? I always tell those asking me about what breed of dog is good for them to research, research, research....and then do more research!

[MJM]

I would also assume that the lab didn't have any serious issues. I would imagine there was some work with the lab but, in the interest of time, that footage wasn't included.

I also find it amazing that someone would purchase a Presa without doing research or having any idea how big and powerful the dog would get. I find it very sad that a breeder would even sell a dog to someone with so little knowledge and with two small children in the house

[Gumby]

Posted the following on one of my boards. That those two owners would allow that breed into their home with two small children, without doing research, is just plain stupid.

German Shepards, Rottweilers, Bulldogs, Pit Bulls, and Dobermans are all familiar to me. It was on Victoria Stilwell's "It's Me or the Dog" TV show that I got a first glimpse of a Presa Canario.

The Presa Canario hails from the Canary Islands, where the dogs were trained for hunting and for war. During the 18th century, English traders and merchants came to the Canary Islands, bringing with them their working and gladiator dogs, notably the Mastiff of England and the Bulldog. Englishmen also brought with them their traditions of pit fighting for which their breeds and the island dogs were inevitably mixed and eventually bred to produce the ultimate fighter. Nowadays the breed is used for guarding and the handling and driving of cattle.

Description
The Presa Canario has a powerful, square head that is nearly as wide as it is long. The muzzle is broad. The chest is deep and broad. The rump is slightly raised. This breed has thick skin, dense bones and powerful muscles and a massive head with a large jaw. The ears are usually cropped. Colors include fawn and various brindles, white markings are sometimes seen.

Temperament
The Presa Canario requires a very dominant owner who understands the alpha nature in canines. No member of the family can be uncomfortable around the dog. Canaries make outstanding guard dogs. Just their appearance is a deterrent not to mention their ability to confront any intruder. In the wrong hands this dog can be dangerous, but with the right owner it can make a nice, devoted companion. This is not a breed for first time dog owners. Owners must take their dogs for daily pack walks to satisfy their migration instincts. The dog must not walk in front of the human who is holding the lead, as the pack leader goes first. The dog must walk beside or behind the human. The objective in training this dog is to achieve a pack leader status. It is a natural instinct for a dog to have an order in their pack. When we humans live with dogs, we become their pack. The entire pack cooperates under a single leader. Lines are clearly defined and rules are set. Because a dog communicates his displeasure with growling and eventually biting, all other humans MUST be higher up in the order than the dog. The humans must be the ones making the decisions, not the dogs. That is the only way your relationship with your dog can be a complete success.

Height, Weight
Weight: 80-130 pounds (36-59 kg.)
Height: 21-25 inches (55-65 cm.)

[Salomé]

First, sorry about the double post. I tried to delete it but couldn't. The Mods can go ahead and do so, if they'd like.

One would hope that breeders of such dogs as the Presa Canario would want to educate those purchasing their puppies. Obviously this is not the case. A google search of this breed gives a lot of information for them. The wife in this episode didn't seem to realize how big these dogs get. Really? I always tell those asking me about what breed of dog is good for them to research, research, research....and then do more research!

I'm surprised at the breeder too. Especially a breeder of Presas, given an incident (see below) which turned Presas (very unfairly) into a symbol of a killer dog and made breeders very careful as to the type of person who got one of their dogs. I used to live in San Francisco. In 2000, two Presas killed a woman in a hallway of the building she lived in. Basically, ripped her almost to shreds. The dogs owners, two lawyers, were put on trial for involuntary murder. Now, I'm NOT saying it was the dogs' fault or that they're a vicious breed. I'm not. Like every breed, it's all about the owner and how the dog is trained (or untrained). Unfortunately, after the incident, as one article says: "Business has never been better--but for all the wrong reasons. The massive, boulder-headed Presa Canario is gaining in popularity as a result of the publicity surrounding the gruesome attack. They are the dog of choice for those who want the most explicit symbol of ferocity the pet kingdom has to offer, breeders and trainers say. [...] "They're looking for that designer weapon that could make them look tougher," said Tracy Hennings, a breeder in Cleveland who is president of the Dogo Canario Club of America. "They want that tough, macho, big dog at the end of the chain, lunging and charging." http://sfdogmauling.com/HomePageLinks/P ... nario.html

That case got *so much* national publicity (esp. during the trial), that I'm surprised Mrs. Odom (because I'm assuming she was the one who chose the Presa, since her husband was totally uninvolved with the dogs) didn't know about the breed. But, assuming she didn't, she should have researched it. (There certainly were enough books in that house to indicate that they were an educated couple. Plus, I think she's a lawyer or that her family owns part of a law firm.)

As for the lab, I'm still not convinced that she didn't give it away. Sure, it's possible the dog didn't have enough issues to warrant wasting film time. BUT.... Rufus had issues with all the other dogs, even if he focused predominantly on Jo Jo. If they were going to work with him to ensure he left the other dogs alone, they wouldn't have just worked with Wolfgang. They would have worked with the lab too, to teach him to "turn away" from a fight as well. They didn't.

[RoseTyler]

WOW Gumby..I was going to research but never did... thank you for that!!! ONE would think the family would have!! I am over the moon that these great shows like Victoria's are educating people. I hope we can reach more! In my younger days, I wanted a dog and I wanted a wolf mix...omg! I didn't do any research and had a mess on my hands for awhile. After he turned 5 he was ok...lol. He was wolf/malumute. For my first dog...really? hahaha. I agree....research, research, research!

[sj96skittles]

Whoa!! They had a lab???? I dnt think I ever saw a lab in that episode!!!

[emmabeth]

Temperament
The Presa Canario requires a very dominant owner who understands the alpha nature in canines. No member of the family can be uncomfortable around the dog. Canaries make outstanding guard dogs. Just their appearance is a deterrent not to mention their ability to confront any intruder. In the wrong hands this dog can be dangerous, but with the right owner it can make a nice, devoted companion. This is not a breed for first time dog owners. Owners must take their dogs for daily pack walks to satisfy their migration instincts. The dog must not walk in front of the human who is holding the lead, as the pack leader goes first. The dog must walk beside or behind the human. The objective in training this dog is to achieve a pack leader status. It is a natural instinct for a dog to have an order in their pack. When we humans live with dogs, we become their pack. The entire pack cooperates under a single leader. Lines are clearly defined and rules are set. Because a dog communicates his displeasure with growling and eventually biting, all other humans MUST be higher up in the order than the dog. The humans must be the ones making the decisions, not the dogs. That is the only way your relationship with your dog can be a complete success.

I know you quoted this from whichever site you found it Gumby, but I do need to make this clear.

NO DOG no matter WHAT breed, needs an owner to dominate it, or be the 'pack leader'. Teaching a dog to walk on a loose lead is sensible and good manners, a dog pulling on the lead is NOT a dog being the pack leader or dominant... that is a load of rubbish.

Presas have NOT evolved to be that different from any other dog, and this kind of alpha, dominance drivel is talked about many of the mastiff types. It is as untrue for them as it is ANY breed and whilst anyone seeking to own a particular breed ought to do their homework, information like the above is as damaging and dangerous as having no information at all, if not worse as attempting to handle a big mastiff in that way is likely to CAUSE aggression related problems, which in any heavy built big dog is dangerous.

[thepennywhistle]

Wow. The background info on this breed is very interesting. I don't think I would want to have
the responsibility for such a dog. Not the dog's fault, mind you -- my concerns would be with dog
vs society making me eternally anxious. People do react negatively to big, scary-looking dogs like
that, even if they're total sweeties. Who needs to find out facts/truth before screaming about
dangerous dogs, right? This is going to be quite a test for this family. And I agree with
whoever pointed it out -- shame on the breeder for not placing this puppy more carefully!

[Gumby]

I am not trying to argue with you Emmabeth, but it seems to me that having a dog walk beside you is something Victoria implements (in several episodes) by taking a firm grip on the lead and forcing a dog that might outweigh her by 20-30 pounds to reverse course. She established pack/dominance over the dog, and while you may disapprove of that term, it seems to me that is precisely what she did. The dogs respond as Victoria hoped, and all lived happily ever after.


This happened in Florida...

http://www.coralsprings.com/frontpage2/dogattack.htm

A woman died Friday afternoon after she was attacked by her dog (a Presa Canario) while giving it a bath in the backyard of her home.

[emmabeth]

I dont disagree that Victoria gives a dog a consequence for not walking beside her, in reversing or turning around and going the other way. She also uses those two methods to break a dogs direct eye contact with another dog too..

But doing that (as I also do with all my dogs) and the resultant effect in the dog then learning to walk beside you to proceed forwards, has nothing to do with pack leadership or dominance, simply the dog learns that pulling no longer works!

If we follow your flawed logic, that a dog walking ahead of the owner means the dog is the 'pack leader' and the owner is therefore not in control, EVERY single dog who tracks - so all Schutzhund, KNPV, police tracking dogs across the world, all scent hounds that track on leash are "dominant" over their owner and their owners/handlers are not in control.


What about the millions of dogs worldwide who are relatively untrained, who pull on the lead at the start of the walk and walk beside the owner on the way home - are these dogs dominant? but only half the time? Or have they simply learned that pulling gets them where they want to go faster?

Anyway - it isnt that *I* disagree. Science disagrees with you - the mechanics of learning theory disagree with you!

[Gumby]

But doing that (as I also do with all my dogs) and the resultant effect in the dog then learning to walk beside you to proceed forwards, has nothing to do with pack leadership or dominance, simply the dog learns that pulling no longer works!

If we follow your flawed logic, that a dog walking ahead of the owner means the dog is the 'pack leader' and the owner is therefore not in control, EVERY single dog who tracks - so all Schutzhund, KNPV, police tracking dogs across the world, all scent hounds that track on leash are "dominant" over their owner and their owners/handlers are not in control.

I formally apologize for my misuse of the words "pack" and "dominance". I sincerely regret not using terms like "leadership" and "love". I haven't had a dog since Gumby crossed that bridge a long time ago, but a little less than 2 years ago a friend bought a pitt bull that he could not control. The dog would drag him around the yard, and when on walks, into the street they would go. This went on for a couple weeks, so I offered to help. Rest assured, I am not a professional trainer, nor do I have an academic background in the "mechanics of learning theory", but within 20 minutes I had that dog peacefully walking beside me. I did not accomplish this by beating the dog with a cane or yelling at him, but rather just 'took control'. I don't speak dog, so the best I can say is... the dog saw me as someone he could trust, and someone he should listen to.

p.s. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that 'hunting' dogs who are 'on the job' had nothing to do with what I was trying to say. It must be my "flawed logic" and utter lack of understanding.

[emmabeth]

An understanding of the mechanics of learning theory is easily and freely available on the internet or in a library - should you care to seek the information out. Try googling 'operant conditioning'.

You dont need to know the scientific words for what is going on when a dog learns something to use it yourself, but it does help if you want to debate what a particular trainer is or is not doing and why the dog is responding the way it is.

If you just wish to troll internet forums with discussion of dominance and pack theory though, I guess you don't need to learn anything at all! Do be aware that such behaviour can and does lead to temporary and permanent bans.

[Gumby]

If you just wish to troll internet forums with discussion of dominance and pack theory though, I guess you don't need to learn anything at all! Do be aware that such behaviour can and does lead to temporary and permanent bans.

I am admin/creator of 5 forums... none of which have anything to do with animals. I 'accidentally' ran across "It's Me or the Dog" while channel surfing one Saturday night and became a big fan of Victoria Stilwell. I posted what I thought was useful information about Presa Canarios and was informed by you that it was drivel and if I wished to continue with the "pack/dominance" trolling nonsense, you would ban me. I can feel the choke chain.