the dog whisperer

clickerbabe · Post by **clickerbabe** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:34 pm

We have Ceasar Milan here in Ireland to do a show in Dublin at the moment. Am I the only one or does anyone else think the method of poking them with Shhhhhhhh is a bit dangerous to be showing on tv for people at home to try? It really worries me.

Also, when people say "there is more than one way to train a dog" .... who believes that? Surely there is only one way and that is, the dogs way, working from the dog`s perspective??

josie1918 · Post by **josie1918** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:44 pm

Ok, I'm on a roll today, I will venture with an OPINION on this one. I do NOT believe EFFECTIVE training can take place without consistant, positive reinforcement. Also, as you say taking into consideration the dogs perspective. Do dogs mind that have been trained other ways? Yes, they obey out of fear, and a fearful dog is NOT a healthy dog. One of the most repulsive, disgusting things I have ever seen in my life was a dog (beautiful GSD) brought in to be euthanized, after his owner tried to pin him. How many have I seen that had to be eithanized due to the owner "teaching him who was boss" ? I can't count that high. Ok, maybe positive reinforcement takes more work, and more time and patience. The end result is a healthy, well adjusted dog.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:46 pm

I'd say there is more than one way to train dogs, because the bad ole ways still delivered results, albeit less good results and more failures.

Even with reward-based dog training, we have to tweak what we decide to do, depending on the individual dog. And therein lies the Art

emmabeth · Post by **emmabeth** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:59 pm

*Battens down the hatches.. hands out life jackets and saftey helmets to all members*...

Keep it clean and remember libel laws apply on the internet...

Annnnnnd.... yes, Cesar Milan is doing a UK tour, hes featuring on a some UK tv shows (Paul O Grady this evening in fact, though ive not been on to the online site to watch that yet....) to promote his tour.

Josie1918.... the science agrees with your opinion on the whole.

Where studies have shown positive punishment to be effective, its been done in extremely controlled environments with a degree of consistancy that is just unattainable by the every day dog owner..... and that is of course not considering the moral and humane aspects of using pain and fear to train dogs!

The world is unfortunately for us in the UK, about to go Cesar Milan MAD and I am dreading it!

His methods, and they are of course not 'his' specifically, do not encourage a healthy and happy relationship between dog and owner, but in my opinion, a relationship that very much mirrors an abusive 'dominator - dominated' relationship.

The methods he chooses to use (and it is a choice, he has a wealth of information available to him and he ignores it on the whole) active DIScourage seeking to get things right, encourage LOOKING for failure and setting up to fail, so that one can then punish... Its never made clear as far as I can see, to the animal, what IS expected of it..

If you look at the age old 'battered wife' type relationship (noting that its not just women that get battered by their partners!) you can find a horrifyingly close comparison..

The sciencey folk might not like that comparison, but surely we own dogs because we like them and want to share our lives with them....

I agree clickerbabe - there is ONE way of training a dog that is effective, efficient, kind, carries a very low risk of things going drastically and dangerously wrong, and a very high chance of success.

That is the use of positive reinforcement and negative punishment.

How one applies those two quadrants of operant conditioning is dependant on the handler, the dog and the problem that requires solving, and it is HERE that we find a million and one ways to tweak this ONE method to fit ALL dogs.

It pains me to hear people say that theres 'no right or wrong way to train a dog' - yes, yes there flaming well is, science shows us it, our moral decency tells us it... and Cesar Milans way is NOT it.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:16 pm

A lovely little dog bit him

He seems to be wary at first but after several dogs got into his stride, the little dog was the best, she bit him when he tried to keep her away from a bowl of food. She was behaving herself but he didn't reward her so she make her thoughts known.

He didn't seem comfortable on the sofa once the attention came away from him.

It was so refreshing to turn over to Sky 3 and watch Victoria immediately after. although I think I would have sent that man packing a long time ago by his partner.

wvvdiup1 · Post by **wvvdiup1** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:27 am

Emmabeth said: "Cesar Milans way is NOT it." Change the period to an exclamation mark and get the word out!

All of you have heard enough on these forums the "pros" and a lot of the "cons" about how Caesar Millian's methods are unorthodox. Many of us in the US have seen enough of his shows to know that his methods aren't in any way healthy for the dogs. Oftentimes, I wonder about the psychological health of the dogs he has so called "trained." But, there aren't any updates on these dogs or if there are updates from these dogs' owners to know anything either!

maximoo · Post by **maximoo** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:20 am

He is not a dog trainer. He trains people, that is his tagline. Every dog is diffferent just like every human is different in personality,intelligence. Anyway there are some similarities btwn CM & VS. But mostly everybody wants to concentrate on the differences. I have seen some good techniques used by CM that doesn't involve 'shhshing" on some dogs. I'll give an example later-got to go to work now.

emmabeth · Post by **emmabeth** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:00 am

No one will deny that a proportion of what he says is sensible or right - the problem is that a large quantity of what he says is NOT right, is dangerous and is damaging to dogs and people.

Now if you have a very thorough understanding of dog behaviour and training, you can easily pick out whats good and whats a load of horseapples..

But, the very VERY vast majority of those watching him (and other dog shows, and telly in general).... do not have that background knowledge and experience to do this.

This is why you'll find that most of the people who speak out against his methods are professionals, and most of the people who find him entertaining or think he is talented, are not.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:02 am

All dog trainers train the owner Maximoo. He does do some good things like getting people to exercise their dogs but the good doesn't excuse the way he abuses the dogs.

A few years ago a dog trainer was given a jail sentence in the UK for helicopering a dog, he does it regularly, if he does it over here he may find himself prosecuted for it. I am sure that the RSPCA will be watching him carefully while he is here.

clickerbabe · Post by **clickerbabe** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:37 am

No one will deny that a proportion of what he says is sensible or right - the problem is that a large quantity of what he says is NOT right, is dangerous and is damaging to dogs and people.

Now if you have a very thorough understanding of dog behaviour and training, you can easily pick out whats good and whats a load of horseapples..

But, the very VERY vast majority of those watching him (and other dog shows, and telly in general).... do not have that background knowledge and experience to do this.

This is why you'll find that most of the people who speak out against his methods are professionals, and most of the people who find him entertaining or think he is talented, are not.

ABSOLUTELY agree with the above 150%. I, like most of you professional trainers, worked VERY hard to qualify as a animal behaviourist/dog, trainer and sat watching CM on a talk show, saying how he had no training, only his experience with dogs as a child! I hear this from SOOO many "trainers" "20yrs experience" Yeah, right.....20yrs being around dogs DOES NOT make you qualified to instruct strangers how to deal with their dog problems!! I think his techniques, as has been said by others, are down right dangerous, particularly when someone has just watched him on t.v!! Then when the dog bites..the dog dies! Wonder how many of those case scenarios have taken place but of course we never hear about them anymore than we hear about his "updates"
Mattie, I doubt very much that the SPCA in u.k or here in Ireland will even be there, much less do anything about him. SPCA inspectors are not trained in dog pchycology and wouldnt realise he was being cruel, anymore than they did when barbara woodhouse was abusing dogs and teaching the world to do the same!! Now of course with Oprah and other celebs using cm (small letters for him as I have no respect for him) people take THAT as the best qualification!! AGGGHHHH, I wish there was a way to stop this barbara woodhouse copy cat!!

Leigha · Post by **Leigha** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:51 am

Mattie wrote:A few years ago a dog trainer was given a jail sentence in the UK for helicopering a dog, he does it regularly, if he does it over here he may find himself prosecuted for it. I am sure that the RSPCA will be watching him carefully while he is here.

I have a few visuals in my head right now about what "helicoptering" a dog means. Can you please describe so I know which visual is right?

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:04 pm

Helicopering is were the dog has a choke chain on and is lifted off the ground by the chain. The chain tightens and the dog can't breath so goes quiet, the owner is then told that the dog has given up and decided to behave, of course he has given up, had no choice with not being able to breath.

Leigha · Post by **Leigha** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:24 pm

Okay, thanks for that.... That was actually not one of the visuals I had in my head. I was picturing Trainer holding dogs two front paws and spinning in circles 'til dogs lifts off the ground while spinning in the air. Couldn't figure out how in god's name that was an effective training strategy.

clickerbabe · Post by **clickerbabe** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:33 pm

Couldn't figure out how in god's name that was an effective training strategy

.

Neither is choking the dog!

Leigha · Post by **Leigha** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:49 pm

And I don't think it is, nor did I say it was. My comment was explaining the fact that without the background knowledge of what helicoptering is, my mind filled in the blanks with things that didn't make sense to me.