the dog whisperer

[wvvdiup1]

Here are two more websites all of you should be able to download about this topic:

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/ ... millan.htm

[mswendl]

I agree with the discussion on C M. I have a few friends/coworkers who think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. One of these people is a dog breeder. She tells me that she doesn't understand why I am so negative about him. (Even though I have told her that I don't think every single thing he does is bad.) When I try to tell her, she tells me that she doesn't wan't to hear it.

What I think is dangerous about his show is that most people who know nothing about dogs or training, have heard about him because of his fame. When they get a dog, what show do they watch? Whose books do they buy? It's because they feel - if he's famous and on tv he must be great. They then apply his methods and end up with a big problem because, they don't have any guidance and they don't know how to "read" the dog. I saw one episode of the program where C.M. took, what I believed was a fear aggressive dog, and threw it into his "psychology center" to be "taught" how to be calm. Of course the dog shut down. Who wouldn't in the middle of a pack of pit bulls? But did the dog really learn that it's wrong to be aggressive? Perhaps what it learned was that he was right to be fearful.

I honestly feel his methods have the potential to set dog training back decades. People will buy into his methods and try to intimidate their dogs into submission. Then they will end up taking their dog to the pound because it bites them.

[wvvdiup1]

I don't think it will set dog training back "ten years" because there are other people like us who will enlightened other people to positive reinforcement training.

However, from what I have been reading, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and other such organizations in the United States have been voicing their positions about the methods Cesar Millan and some others for quite some time! It is interesting to note the time these organizations claim to be watching Cesar and others, and to note the times they have published their opinions.

What I don't understand is that with all their affliates around the US and each state's laws prohibiting (if you will allow me to use this term), why nothing more was ever done or why Cesar and others weren't punished to the full extent of the law?

[Mattie]

I have been putting quite a lot of items on Freecycle recently, one of the people who came was a retired headmaster of junior school children, he had never had a dog but thought CM was wonderful.

The principles of training anything is the same, they do have to be adapted to the species we are teaching and what we are teaching so I had a ball with this man.

I asked him how he would deal with a child that was running wild in his class or one that was punching the other children. He got the message immediately, he really looked shocked when he did.

A few hours later I received an email from him, after what I had said he thought about it and realised that what CM was doing was abuse in some cases, if he treated a child in the same way to teach them, he would be put in jail and the key thrown away. He went on to say that he understood teaching and training much better now than he had in all his years of teaching.

[Nettle]

I posted some time back that my brother (an intelligent man, but he has never owned a dog) gave me some good tips about how to train my dogs (I am a highly qualified trainer and behaviourist) taken straight from CM.

You have to love family but you can see how this grows legs.

[Emmy'sMama]

I think the one thing that particularly bothers me about Cesar Milan's training techniques is that they just don't translate well to your average dog owner. I, for example, am not going to take on a large aggressive dog, as he often does. I remember watching one episode in which he was battling it out with an English bulldog and was bitten. My mother-in-law owns an English bulldog and there is no way I want those teeth breaking my skin.

I find Victoria's--just to use her as one example--techniques to be much easier to implement.

But, when I go to my parent's house--they occasionally watch his "Dog Whisperer"--they will try to pull out the sshhsh! finger technique on Emma when she starts barking (typical Samoyed, she likes to talk, a lot). I keep telling them that she's barking for attention and that ignoring her will ultimately work out better. Anyway, as others have pointed out, Cesar has a much wider viewership than any other dog trainer and therefore a lot of novices (and even more experienced dog owners) will try his methods.

[Mattie]

I think the one thing that particularly bothers me about Cesar Milan's training techniques is that they just don't translate well to your average dog owner. I, for example, am not going to take on a large aggressive dog, as he often does. I remember watching one episode in which he was battling it out with an English bulldog and was bitten. My mother-in-law owns an English bulldog and there is no way I want those teeth breaking my skin.

I find Victoria's--just to use her as one example--techniques to be much easier to implement.

If you watch him carefully you will see that he instigates the aggression, the dog doesn't show this much until he starts to work with it. Instead of setting the dog up to succeed and do what we want, he is setting the dog up to be aggressive, the more aggressive the better, it gives a better show. He doesn't care what he is doing mentally to the dog.

[Nettle]

I shall be going to one of his UK demos with a group of behaviourists. I will report back in due course.

[Noobs]

If there is a way whatsoever to turn him around, I sincerely hope you guys can do it. I really do think he loves dogs but that he - like many who have old fashioned views - are either misled or just haven't been "awakened" to a more humane method. I for one am so thankful I found this board and found a wonderful way to teach my dog. Seeing him have "aha" moments during clicker training are my among my favorite experiences.

[Nettle]

I don't think we can turn him around - after all, he makes an awesome amount of money doing what he does - and I certainly don't doing what I do

All we can do is keep spreading the message. And I for one think we catch more flies with honey than vinegar, so I will stick up for the aspects of CM that I find good (the way he makes people exercise their dogs), just as I will criticise what I don't (most of the rest of it).

[Emmy'sMama]

Mattie, I definitely agree that he may actually instigate the aggression. His method can be very confrontational. And yes, it does make for a more compelling show. But this can be so dangerous, especially for your average dog owner to attempt.

Nettle, I do see some methods that I like from Cesar. As others have noted, he is right on in some cases and perhaps we should embrace the good. I'm sure he has helped some dog owners. He may also have confused a few or even put a few in danger. In the end (and it seems that everybody on this forum would agree with me here), I think Victoria and other trainers in her vein are better models for your average dog owner--particularly because I think most owners would find it easier and and have more real success following her methods.

[Mattie]

99% of aggression is fear, take that fear away and the dog isn't aggressive, treating a dog the way that CM does reinforces the fear, he tells the dog that there is something to be very frightened of which is dangerous, many are just ticking time bombs.

I took on an aggressive dog, she was aggressive to one of my other dogs and to all strange dogs as well as to people. I wish I had known Victoria's method when Gracie first came, it was a lot quicker than the method I used. Both methods worked because the dog's fear wasn't reinforced but the dog's confidence was built up and took the fear away so the dogs had no need to be frightened.

Gracie was on small, 10ins tall but she did do quite some damage to one of my fingers, her teeth went through a nail to the bone, that nail has never grown back properly. At first my lack of experience I couldn't work out if she was frightened with other dogs until one day when it was really obvious, that was the day I started to work on her fear to solve her agression and she never looked back.

CM is very strong, probably much stronger than most men and this is why he is able to wrestle the dogs, even fewer women will have this strength. If you don't have the strength to see thing through, you are putting yourself in danger by trying these methods. Having been threatened quite a few times by my Greyhound to take my face off if I had tried his methods with him my face would have been gone the first time I tried.

Any idiot can try using brawn, it takes brains to out think a dog to turn them round.

[Noobs]

Any idiot can try using brawn, it takes brains to out think a dog to turn them round.

Amen!

I admit to using some of his "posturing" and even poking my dog with my fingers as "corrections". I even alpha rolled him twice and he was terrified of me, which I hated. I couldn't stand seeing him cower when I stood over him. I never helicoptered my dog, although one of the trainers in that horrible obedience class I took him to wrestled with him as he struggled with a prong collar on. All of this was well over a year ago, far behind us, and I can only hope that my dog is recovered from my abusive period.

I can't watch his show anymore. I used to watch all the time, even after I stopped using his methods, so I could use it as a tool for "how would I do it differently." But even now I can't bring myself to listen to some of him diagnosing dogs with everything being dominance based. A frenchie who ran all over the house was dominant - no, he's under-exercised and the family didn't know how to communicate with him and teach him how to behave. In fact, CM was teaching the 8-year-old son how to "dominate" the dog and as the kid walked toward the dog, the dog rolled onto his side offering his belly. No one needed to dominate this particular dog at all. It was maddening. Another dog who responded to bananas as a reward was low in potassium - what? A dog who was fearful of loud noises was forced to walk on a treadmill with noises playing in the background - CM said he didn't want to take baby steps because it would set the dog back. So backwards!

I love dogs and I'll watch just about anything if there's a dog in it - even some really bad canine cop movies from the '90s! But I can't take this guy anymore.

[ithinkican]

I started out watching CM but my daughter tuned me in to Victoria. A couple weeks after we got Luka there was a IMOTD marathon on TV. We watched together until I had to go babysit for a neighbor. We had been struggling teaching Luka to lie down, but during one episode where Victoria demonstrated the technique my daughter copied and taught him to down. It was so cool!

I wish Victoria was at least as mainstream as CM. I hear advice all the time from folks who watch his show.

My view is that if a training method is too inhumane to use on a child, its too inhumane to use on a dog. I mean- we could clicker train a toddler if we wanted. It would be seriously strange, but wouldn't hurt the child any

[wvvdiup1]

Um, don't forget, clicker training works on male humans as well!