Victoria/Cesar stand off!!

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cindynok
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Post by cindynok »

Mattie wrote:The best way I can describe it Nettle is think of boys as Terriers and girls as Labradors.
Hi Mattie,
Does that mean old men are bloodhounds? My hubby loves the recliner more than any other posession and is usually asleep in it.

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Cindy
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

I would say old men are more like Greyhounds without their gorgeous figures. Like Greyhounds they are couch potatoes, sleep all day until they see a lovely young lady. :roll:
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Missymay wrote:I don't know that I would say that different breeds need different training as much as I would say that different breeds are motivated by different things.

With any dog, I would try to find what that dog finds highly reinforcing and use that.

I would still strive to get the behavior than mark and reinforce it. The difference would be primarily in how I reinforced.

I actually said "different training techniques" and what you say above is indicative of your agreement with that :D and I agree with your development of it.


So many trainers think you can train all dogs with the same reinforcers.
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Missymay
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Post by Missymay »

Nettle, I don't know about there, but here, people seem to think R+ based trainers are one trick ponies. But we really do have a lot of different techniques available to us, don't we? It's not just feed and feed and feed.

I have a little pommy girl who would move the world to get you to throw the ball and I have a mix who will ignore you in training unless there is food involved (but does well once the behavior is learned).

Cesar always says animal, dog, breed, name and I personally would totally reverse that.

First, look at what motivates that individual animal, what it wants and needs, then, turn to breed for more ideas and lastly remember that this is a dog.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

I always put it being a dog first, maybe it is because I used to work with children and horses, but I find it helps if I put "This is a dog"first. I then use breed and motivation together. A dog that has been bred to retrieve will often work for something different to a JRT or a herder, I feel that these do go together to help work out what the dog will work for.

Cross breeds and mongrels become fun, I have a Lab/Collie, her stomach is her priority but also loves a ball, and a Greyhound/GSD who's only thought is her stomach. :lol:
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Nettle
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Post by Nettle »

Mmmm that's interesting - I'd say animal, dog, breed - not sure what he means by name?

Of course we here are streets ahead because the animal - dog thing is already a given so far as we are concerned, but a lot of the owners shown on TV don't seem to have grasped either notion. Nor a lot of my customers either - and I pick and choose the people I agree to help.

I think breed knowledge is crucially important, for hardwired behaviour and motivators, and also for avoiding unrealistic expectations.


I love this discussion :D
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Noobs
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Post by Noobs »

Nettle wrote:Mmmm that's interesting - I'd say animal, dog, breed - not sure what he means by name?

Of course we here are streets ahead because the animal - dog thing is already a given so far as we are concerned, but a lot of the owners shown on TV don't seem to have grasped either notion. Nor a lot of my customers either - and I pick and choose the people I agree to help.

I think breed knowledge is crucially important, for hardwired behaviour and motivators, and also for avoiding unrealistic expectations.


I love this discussion :D
When he says "name" he means that people treat their dogs like humans, so they should think of the dog as an animal first, then a dog, then the breed, THEN the name (their pet/baby, etc.). I think he means that when people think of the dog as its name first, then they are meeting their needs (affection to/from the dog) and not the dog's (animal/dog/breed).

I don't love everything he does, but I appreciate that he will call owners out on treating their dogs like babies and being selfish by making cuddling more important than exercise, etc.
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Post by Doggie Python »

Noobs wrote:
When he says "name" he means that people treat their dogs like humans, so they should think of the dog as an animal first, then a dog, then the breed, THEN the name (their pet/baby, etc.). I think he means that when people think of the dog as its name first, then they are meeting their needs (affection to/from the dog) and not the dog's (animal/dog/breed).

I don't love everything he does, but I appreciate that he will call owners out on treating their dogs like babies and being selfish by making cuddling more important than exercise, etc.
Another area where he and Victoria have a lot in common. If you don't address how the humans interact with the dog (and often each other), it's much harder and sometimes impossible to help the dog. I've done a bit of work in co-dependancy and family dynamics and how it affects the children in these families. I see the same parallels in working with dogs. Yep, it's the owners! :wink:

The starting point of viewing a dog as "animal, dog, breed, and then individual personality" is actually the scientific approach to studying all living organizms. You start with the common ground first, and work up to the individual. This is very helpful in getting owners to stop seeing their dog as a person or with too much projected emotion.

My list is longer than Cesar's, starting with "animal/vertebrate/mammal/canine/dog/breed" and finally the "individual personality" and case history of the specific dog. I can post a link with the actual scientific breakdown, but I'd have to look at it myself in order to use the big words. :lol:

"Canine/dog" is important to see how a dog was designed by nature. Although there is some debate on where man actually started his genetic manipulations. Fulfilling the dog's needs, as a dog is important.

"Breed" is also important because the "bred for by man" skills a dog is born with can give you a big heads-up as to where those "skills" may surface if a dog becomes frustrated, bored, or confused. Fulfilling the skills (or finding a similar task) a dog was bred for, is also important.

"Individual personality" is where you explore the nature/nurture/age/sex/age/health/case history of the individual. The specific dog may also have specific needs which should be fulfilled.

I think all of the levels are important, no matter where you start. I'm just very careful not to use any of them to make excuses such as: Breed = "Well, it's hopeless. He's a Labrador, a hunter. He was born to chase chickens (It was written in the stars?!) There is nothing I can do...". I heard this from my neighbor after his dogs went after my hens. Hmmm, I've had a Labrador, a Catahoula, and and Australian Cattle Dog...all of which learned to ignore my hens.
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Post by Nettle »

Just shows he had little idea of what a labrador was actually bred to do, and was making excuses for his own lack of effort in training his dog :roll:
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Post by Mattie »

When I was training to be a riding instructor it was fashionable to go as deeply as they could into the whys and wherefores of horse behaviour. A lot of long words was bandied around which were only understood by those involved with those that thought it was important to go deeply into everything. How they horse ticks, training, behaviour etc, as is happening with dogs now.

Yes we do need to understand these things but what was happening was people were going into to much, they were trying to find reasons why a horse did this or a horse did that and were able to give their reasons. Instead of horses improving, they started to go backwards.

What these people were not doing was following their instincts, instincts were not scientific so had no part in horses and their training.

We are given instincts to help us with our lives, they help keep us free of danger etc, and when working with animals, our instincts can often do the right thing for both the dog and us without us knowing why. This instinct seems to be going out of dog training as well now which is a pity.

It was my instincts that stopped Merlin from completing his hydrotherapy earlier today, there was no obvious reason for it, nothing seemed to be wrong and Merlin was working well. When we got him out, he was freezing, if we had continued he would have been suffering from hypothermia by the time we got him out. Instead of the water being at a nice warm temperature, it had gone very cold.

We can go into things as deeply as we can, we will never find out most of what we want, but don't forget your instincts, they are there for a reason and we can try and work out why afterwards.
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Post by Cracker »

Mattie I agree to a point.
The reason most of us want to learn more about the WHY is that so many assumptions re dominance or "he knows better" gets in the way of humanely modifying the behaviour. It also teaches us a "logical" empathy. By learning more about why and how dogs behave we are better able to come up with solutions that will work.

That being said, I am also a huge believer in instinct. I use my instinct in determining if an animal is not feeling well, is in pain or is just plain uncomfortable but this is informed by my knowledge of body language and canine communication. There are many people out there who can read their dogs and others simply by being aware and watchful with the animals but few people are truly that mindful. The beauty of the information available out there now for the masses is that they can now SEE what they couldn't see before. The behaviour is the symptom, the knowledge is what helps to find the dis-ease.

True knowledge covers many different types of information; that which you can observe, that which you can replicate, that which you can feel etc. The more info you have (from all sources) the better decisions can be made.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

I may not have put it very well Cracker, I don't mean that we stop learning about dogs, we need to learn as much as we can, the more we know the more our dogs benefit, but not at the expense of our instincts, we need to keep these and not ignore them.

Sometimes we are so intense with learning we get bogged down, the more we learn the more we want to learn, that is how it should be, but we shouldn't get so bogged down that all we thing about is the learning. We need to keep balanced and not have more of one and little of another.

A dog's conformation and ability to move is also relevant to training, especially these days when so many dogs are badly bred. Many Greyhounds find it very difficult to sit, if started as puppies they can often do this, but as an adult dog, very few can. Many trainers try to force these dogs to sit and can do a lot of damage to them by this. They don't take into consideration the dog's confirmation.

Many dogs now have hip displacia from an early age, this should show up in how they move and stand but how many people see this? It is only when the dog goes seriously lame that the dog is taken to the vets, quite a bit of damage can be done by then.

A dog having problems moving will be more difficult to train, usually this is put down to the dog being thick, stupid or awkward when in fact the dog is having problems doing it.

Dogs intended to compete need to have good confirmation in order to be trained to the standard required and also need to be able to move properly, if there are any faults with either, the dog won't make the requred standard and could be really struggling and in some cases in pain. Dogs don't show pain very well unfortunately, when they do it is usually serious. I am not talking about cuts, sprains etc that are normal day to day things with dogs, but the more serious as hip or elbow displacia, knee problems etc.

you want a pup to train to do agility/flyball, you pick the breed you think will be able to train enough to win competitions with, say a collie. You look at the mum and dad, may even look at the pedigree, but do you look at the confirmation of the pups, or mum and dad?

To me this is all relevant to training dogs, Bonnie's back legs were broken when she was a pup, they are not straight and she doesn't move straight, if she had gone to a Collie home she wouldn't have been able to keep up yet she is more Collie than Lab, has all the Collie traits including the energy. I have to adapt her training to the way her back legs are and how she moved.
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Post by Nettle »

I am a retired physiotherapist and it grieves me how many dogs are moving badly and their owners cannot see it. If I sit in on a training class I will spot several dogs with back, hip, elbow problems but the owners and trainers are fixated on SitSitSit not seeing the distress it is causing the dog..

I don't 'sit' my dogs at all - they have long backs at maturity and it is uncomfortable for them. But they will stand in one place on command instead. I would like to see modern training move on to where it will question and discard this endless 'sit'.

I find the build of modern German Shepherd Dogs particularly distressing. And I notice Border Collies are being bred "downhill" now. Awful.
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Mattie
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Post by Mattie »

Yipppeeee someone who can understand comfirmation at last :lol:

I am not happy with Tilly's back legs Nettle, to me they look too long for her but I know very little about confirmation, I would love your opinion please, pretty please. :D

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Post by Nettle »

Not the easiest photo, and a photo is only a snapshot in time, so bear with me :D

Hindquarters are fine in size because they are the driving force and balancer of the forehand, and I see heavy shoulders and a large head, though all seems in proportion. I get a feel of a pelvic or sacro-iliac injury from long ago, possibly the result of a fall. Can't see from the photo but is she a little "downhill"?

A side-on pic with her head in profile would tell me more, when you get time, and I'd like to see her feet. Does she have big splayed GSD feet or tight running-dog feet?
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