Victoria/Cesar stand off!!

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:00 am

This is correct, Paul. Cesar calls himself a behaviourist, no law against that (unfortunately), and he does not "train" dogs. I have seen him bring in clicker trainers and schutzhund trainers depending on the dog's situation. The really unfortunate thing is that his understanding of dog behaviour is based on non scientific or old research and has not kept up with what we know about operant learning. I have seen more dogs shut down on his show than I can count.

BUT...he does do some good work, rescuing and advocating for the bullybreeds and helping people realize that fulfilling your dog with exercise and boundaries is a must. I just wish he would give up that whole "dominance" vocabulary and realize that many of the behaviours he is dealing with are NOT dominance. Most are fear based or simply lack of manners.

Doggie Python · Post by **Doggie Python** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:39 am

Actually, although Cesar doesn't speak in a lot of scientific terminology, there is a lot of science in his philosophies. He just tends to put things into terms the average dog owner can connect with.

I see a lot of classical conditioning being used. He also uses social learning and operant conditioning.

A difference between Cesar and Victoria, is his use of his own dogs (The Power of the Pack) to help influence and teach the owner's dogs. I don't remember seeing Victoria's dog on her show.

I'm glad to see Victoria's show on the air and how she works with the dogs. She incorporates more social interaction, instruction, and boundaries than many of the "positive only" trainers I've encountered who refuse to use the word "no" and have trouble relating to dogs if it's not through "click-and-treat".

Again, I like both shows and maybe it's just my nature to study the common ground rather than focus on the differences.

Cracker · Post by **Cracker** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:26 pm

Dennis, I hear what you are saying and yes, I have seen him use (in the last season anyway) a bit more of classical conditioning etc and as evidenced in my first post in this thread but his constance references to "pack hierarchy" etc creates issues with the average pet owner in that many believe in "dominating" their dog and end up causing more problems than they started with.

lablver2 · Post by **lablver2** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:05 pm

A difference between Cesar and Victoria, is his use of his own dogs (The Power of the Pack) to help influence and teach the owner's dogs. I don't remember seeing Victoria's dog on her show.

Yes but if I read correctly Victoria's dog has some issues with dogs of her own that are getting better. I believe her dog was not socialized properly before Victoria got a hold of her and this is the root of some of the issues. I am guessing the reason she doesn't use her dog on the show. Dog aggresion issues can take a little longer to overcome.
If you are working with dog aggresive dogs you certainly do not want another dog aggresive dog with you.

Missymay · Post by **Missymay** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:21 pm

Actually, there is a complete lack of science in Cesar's methods and it is that to which I object.

For example, he suugests taking dogs on a 2 hour "migratory" walk daily. Now, a person with any beckground in behavioral science would know that dogs do not migrate. Wolves do not migrate. There are specific criteria set up to define migration and the movement of dogs and wolves do not meet them.

But Cesar will call it migration and his followers, in their ignorance, will walk around going on about how dogs need to be walked for at least two hours a day because the are migratory animals.

He makes things up to make it sound like he has a clue when he is clueless.

On his show, he recently took an overexuberant puppy and, in a single day, turned it into a dog who bit out of fear (almost getting his kids bit in the process), then showed the owners how calm and assertive energy could fix the problem he created in the first place.

And his explanation for why the dog was biting when someone, towering over it, backed it into a corner, ignored it's appeasement and displacement signals then tried to grab his collar?

The dog was "Nervous Dominant". I kid you not, he actually said that.

I can not count the number of times I have seen him call calming signals dominant behavior. I have seen him punish appeasement gestures. No one who understood dog behavior would do or say the things he does and says.

Here is a sweet little example of his work:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9iUeD4oxG ... re=related

He held that dog on it's side for more than 8 minutes. 8 minutes of terror. Canines do not hold another dog down like that unless they are going in for the kill. 8 minutes of feeling that level of fear is bound to not only physically, but mentally exhaust creature.

The dog probably had an initial burst of adreniline and when it wore off, he was drained of all ability to struggle on any level.

Here is another nice one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFi8VPiM ... re=related

He actually picks the dog up by grabbing two fistfuls of skin.

In addition, he holds him down by grabbing the skin around his neck. At one point, they actually go close on the hand and you can see how he is holding him.

He also holds a slip lead very tightly and creates a struggle with the dog.

All this on a bulldog, a breed that is infamous for respiratory issues and collapsing trachias.

And here is another example of his genius. Let's take a dog reactive dog and walk her into our compound on lead. Someone with a real understanding of behavioral science would have never let this occur in the first place. Then, he helicopters her. Nice. Again, he is punishing the dog for a situation he created. How many stress signals can those of us with a true scientific understanding of behavior see here?

http://www.youtube.com/user/vvolcano944

BTW, the ability to think symbolically resides in the frontal lobes. The frontal lobes of dogs are very underdeveloped making it highly unlikely they can think symbolically. If they can not think symbolically, they can not assign rank. If they can not assign rank, dominance theory goes out the window.

Doggie Python · Post by **Doggie Python** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:48 pm

I have just as many issues with the belief that every lick of the lips is a "calming signal" as I do with the belief that every paw up, is a "dominant" signal.

Truth is, these are all human opinions based on observations and belief systems. There is no absolute proof on what actually goes on inside the mind of a dog, or what they are trying to communicate. All highly debatable.

The ability of dogs to think symbolically may also be debatable. They certainly seem to be high on the charts when it comes to observational, associative, and social learning. Their fast-mapping abilities are also pretty impressive.

Doggie Python · Post by **Doggie Python** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:29 pm

I found a cute link with a bit of an explaination on "fast mapping".

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/154dogtalk/

cindynok · Post by **cindynok** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:17 pm

For example, he suugests taking dogs on a 2 hour "migratory" walk daily. Now, a person with any beckground in behavioral science would know that dogs do not migrate. Wolves do not migrate. There are specific criteria set up to define migration and the movement of dogs and wolves do not meet them.

Maybe it is a translitation issue.
Why would National Geographic not check on a person's background?
Of course I am still puzzled about what makes so many experts on all the reality shows, most carpenters on home repair are actually models or stand up comedians.
Hugs,
Cindy

cindynok · Post by **cindynok** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:47 pm

Hi,
I was trying to research CM's actual education and ended up here. Please read all but take a special look at the lower part of the page. What I read that concerned me is his reference to dog packs that work on the farm, I didn't know dog packs worked on farms. Usually a farmer calls a group of dogs that kill livestock a "pack".
He does lack any formal education, and I know I will watch his show with more skepticism. I truely believe that experience counts but charm is going get someone hurt.
Cindy

cindynok · Post by **cindynok** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:59 pm

Sorry,
I was reading on CM"s education on Wikpedia. Sorry

Missymay · Post by **Missymay** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:05 pm

Cesar has no formal educaton in ethology, learning theory or behavior. He learned by watching dogs on his grandfather's farm.

As to fastmapping, it seems that this is one spcific dog. How many other dogs have been trained to this skill?

BTW, a leg lift is considered to be a distance decreasing behavior.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:48 am

Nothing wrong with learning by observation and experience.

I don't care what he calls walking dogs

if more people walked their dogs for 2 hours a day we'd have far happier dogs and far fewer behavioural "issues" which are just boredom and loneliness manifesting themselves in a manner inconvenient to humans.

Mattie · Post by **Mattie** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:40 am

I have just as many issues with the belief that every lick of the lips is a "calming signal" as I do with the belief that every paw up, is a "dominant" signal.

These are just small parts in the overall body language of a dog, dogs will lick their lips if they have managed to get some nice chocolate especially if it is soft.

Tilly will lift her left paw up when she is either confused or unsure of something, she used to do it a lot when she first came here but not as much now. Tilly is happy to be bottom of my pack.

Cesar has no formal educaton in ethology, learning theory or behavior.

Neither have I, I learnt by watching my dogs, reading as much as I could, picking good trainers/behaviourists brains and having dogs that others wouldn't take because their problems were so bad. Many have been in several homes before they came here. I have trained to be a horse riding instructor and qualified to teach riding and stablemanagement.

Missymay · Post by **Missymay** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:47 am

Nettle, take a gander at the links I posted.

My point on the migratory walks was that he makes things up to support his ideas. Dogs do not migrate, they are nomadiac and diurnal. Say that the reason you should take a dog on a two hour walk because wild dogs and wolves migrate is just not true.

He also still uses Alpha Rolls (again, as displayed in the links I posted) and is an advocate of physical corrections, including leash pops and neck jabs.

BTW, I think there is nothing wrong with learning by observing, but to call oneself a behaviorist, one should have some understanding of behavior.

Nettle · Post by **Nettle** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:03 am

And my point is that it doesn't matter what in hell it is called or how mistaken the reasons for dogs needing exercise, they do need exercise, lots of exercise, and if the mistaken idea still means people exercise their dogs when they did not before, I for one can be tolerant of the mistake.

After all, we have to deal with a lot of cockamamie ideas

that dog behaviourists come up with, don't we?

(Now where are my dominant wolves that have to learn nothing in life is free?)