LAPD shoots rottie

Get to know other Positively members here.

Moderators: emmabeth, BoardHost

gwd
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 pm

LAPD shoots rottie

Post by gwd »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9fCK6Y0bu4

and other footage, different angle.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1390610

warning, this is graphic video...........there seemed to be several opportunities to have diffused the situation with the dog........and his brief charge at the shooting officer sure seemed provoked imo.

sadly, this video reinforces my distrust of the police.
Image
gwd
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by gwd »

Image
Ari_RR
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:07 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by Ari_RR »

I can't even describe the frustration I have after watching this, at the idiot dog owner who essentially put the dog in the line of fire. Sometimes the level of reckless stupidity some of our fellow humans exhibit is just.... so sad.

I think - when the situation around is tense and getting worse, with police with machine guns, etc, first thing you'd think one with at least half brain does is remove the dog, not let it get loose. I can't really blame the cops too much in this case, although using lethal force may have been unnecessary... They may be trained to handcuff unruly humans without using deadly force, but having an angry Rottweiler in their faces presented a potential danger for which there was no answer. Very sad.

In my view, the idiot owner is to blame. Cops perhaps could have handled it better, but their focus was (and was supposed to be) on the robbery in progress and dealing with idiots on the street... the wellbeing of the poor dog was distant second priority. Very sad.
gwd wrote:sadly, this video reinforces my distrust of the police.
It would be interesting to hear comments from some of our friends here who have law enforcement background, and get some insights into what goes though an average cop's mind in a situation like this.
I tend to distrust every unknown person when it comes to my dog, to be honest. Presumption of guilt, if you will... Until proven otherwise. Safer that way. So, when in doubt, on either my dog's reaction to the situation, or people's reaction to my dog, my first instinct is to get him the hell out, as quickly and as far away as possible....

Just my 2 cents on this.
Last edited by Ari_RR on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by jacksdad »

ok...watched both videos, the one the police say will help their case....not so much given there are better angles and less edited videos out there. If you know even basic dog body language, that was not an aggressive or dangerous dog.

The officer look young, very young, and did about every thing wrong he could have in dealing with the dog. The dog was not an aggressive dog, it only went forward that last time when the officer advanced with his hand over his head and body leaning forward. This shooting absolutely did not need to happen. If that dog had truly been aggressive, the officer who shot wouldn't have been able to shoot after that last lunge that lead to him shooting. In my opinion the dog lunged that last time that lead to being shot for the same reason that reporter got bit in the face a year or so ago in Denver Colorado.

So..... more things to keep in mind......

Context matters. The police were there due to an armed robbery call, which means they are already on edge. you will notice they had their MP5s out and were in force. You don't pull sub-machine guns (the mp5s) shotguns or rifles unless there is a elevated level of risk to the officers and public. this week 2 LA officers were ambushed and shot. Another officer and parole agent were ambushed and shot while entering the house of a parole for a check. If you don't think those events weren't somewhere in the minds of every officer who was on the scene of that armed robbery call, don't kid your self. They wouldn't be human if they didn't have it on their mind to some degree. I don't fault them for that.

The guy they arrested...if there was a book with a step by step guide on how to get arrested, he seems to have bought it and followed it line by line. The dog owner bares a 51% responsibility for what happened. Let me say that again...the dog owner set the stage for this and is 51% responsible for his dog being shot.

Police officer training. contrary to popular belief, basic police officer training...is well very basic. learning to read dog body language, learning to handle and deal with dogs, is not a high priority and would be shocked if there is even anything in the academy on it. heck, even weapons skills are not as high a priority as you would think, so you can imagine how low dogs would be on the list of things to train before going out on patrol.

so lets add all this up...... 4 Police officers shot in the last week, respond to a armed robbery call, by stander (man with dog) creates an incident, officer with little to no training about dogs, and and I am guessing little to no personal experience with dogs....add all that up and when you hit the = sign....you end up with a dead dog.

Did the dog need to be shot. Absolutely NOT. But the police only bare a 49% percent responsibility in this unfortunate and unnecessary incident that didn't have to happen. I don't think the death threats are appropriate over this (the new reports talk of the police receiving death threats over this) and I hope the officer doesn't loose his job do what is basically a gaping whole in his training. But he could sure use some training and guidance in dealing with dogs.

There does seem to be a raise in dog shootings. I believe there are a few reasons for this.

1. few and few people have any experience with animals of any kind.
2. we are at a transition period in terms of generations. all the experienced, long time cops that started in the 70's and 80's they are retiring. we have a lot of rookies out there on the police forces.
3. police officers are human too. They are just as susceptible to media hype about "dangerous dogs" as anyone else.

We have 2 choices moving forward.

1. we can join the beat up on the cops crowd and further expand the growing divide between cops and everyone else.....

2. we can find some way to get out and start educating police departments about how to read and deal with dogs. And if we choose this path, be prepared for a up hill battle because the dominance model of dog training/behavior is still strong in the world of police.

It would take a lot of work to build credibility and to even get your foot in the door, and then to make even some small head way getting started. But I would strongly suggest that finding a way to take option 2 will save more dogs down the road than just lashing out at the cops. if incidents of police shooting dogs continue, the desperation to improve their public image may create the opening we need to maybe be the voice that helps turn this around.
Ari_RR
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:07 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by Ari_RR »

jacksdad wrote: We have 2 choices moving forward.

1. we can join the beat up on the cops crowd and further expand the growing divide between cops and everyone else.....

2. we can find some way to get out and start educating police departments about how to read and deal with dogs. And if we choose this path, be prepared for a up hill battle because the dominance model of dog training/behavior is still strong in the world of police.
3. We can start promoting the basics of common sense, somehow... That if there is armed police running around, with guns drawn - don't stroll lazily with your dog, shooting video with your camera... Get your dog safely contained, and then, if you are so inclined to get in everyone's face with your right to film anyone anywhere - be my guest.. How exactly common sense can be promoted - that I don't have any good suggestions for... :(
lucyandbella
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 7:19 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by lucyandbella »

There was a video on youtube which is now blocked unless you sign in (someone flagged it graphic) that shows how this idiot owner arrived on scene. He comes in driving his car blasting music with his dog hanging very far out the window. He drives slowly and close to he police car barricade. He then pulls over close to the scene while all other bystanders remain on the other side of the street (by the way they were filming and officers have said they were aware and did not care, this guy was not arrested for filming as the Internet makes you believe, it is legal to film in California! There might be a stupid reason for detaining him but it was not for filming). He then leaves his car running, music blasting and takes his large dog from the car and approaches the scene. I ask if you were a cop with your back to this man trying to focus on your very dangerous job of getting armed suspects, what would you be thinking?

He then yells at the cops (witnesses say about civil rights stuff or something) and the cops ask him to turn off his music. It was not the filming that pissed off the cops, at least not all of it. Remember it is not illegal to be filming police in California but it is illegal to interfere with a police officer doing his duty. This was a dangerous situation and this man was distracting and purposely leaving loud music on and going right up to the cops. He even had a chance to freaking leave if he would have got in the car with his dog after they approached!!! Instead he puts his dog in the car and leaves the windows down, at least tie his leash to something, he had to know his dog could get out since it was seen in the previous video the dog already had half his body out of the car upon arrival. You know what happens next. Remember these police are not trained on dog body language and proper handlng, usually do not have catch poles like animal control. Meanwhile a man who acted like he wanted to cause problems for the cops has his large dog out of the car with bystanders everywhere. That's what a cop sees. In my opinion the officer is unsure and scared of this dog, unjustified and could have been handled better. But he tried so grab the leash to gain control of the animal, the only way he can get control of him. The dog lunges, how was he to know that dog wouldn't maul him? The dog jumps up toward his face. The only thing he could have done, with his obvious lack of dog knowledge, was to use mace instead of a gun and I am not sure why he didn't. That is his fault.

For how cops are trained we can't fault them in this situation, we need to demand dog handling/education be part of their training. That being said I don't trust cops with my dogs, hence this would never happen to my dogs, I would leave them home if I was going to harass officers. There have been cases of dogs getting shot that are disturbing, I absolutely think they need training and the trigger happiness of some police officers is terrifying. But in this case I'm only angry at the owner. All of this would be avoided if he put his dog before himself.
Suzette
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:45 am

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by Suzette »

I have to agree with some of the others here,the fault lies not so much on the police, but on the owner of the dog. We get to judge the whole scenario from the comfort (and safety) of our living rooms, but that cop was in a very tense, very dangerous situation and then some lunatic purposely brings a large, snarling dog into the mix and the end result was fairly predictable.

My faith and trust in the police is not daunted by this video. It saddens me to no end that the dog had to die because the owner was an idiot wrapped in a moron, but I don't blame the cop. So very, very few of us are fluent in dog body language, and it would be unreasonable to expect this man to be. (It would be lovely if all cops were taught dog body language, but then it would be pretty great if everyone, regardless of occupation was, but that just isn't going to happen.)

Ultimately, the responsibility will always fall mainly on us (the owners) the keep our dogs as safe as we can in any situation.
My avatar is Piper, my sweet Pembroke Corgi. b. 5/11/11
Flyby
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:04 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by Flyby »

How very sad for Max. Whoever was to blame, it sure wasn't him. I don't blame the cop, although I wouldn't commend him for bravery either. The owner is the reason it all happened, and the buck stops with him. When you have a big dog, there's an added layer of responsability that goes along with it.

It actually concerns me how the police would deal with my Odin in the event of something happening to me, (and I don't mean getting myself arrested, but say I collapsed in the street). That's why I have always been keen for my dogs to meet cops in uniform so they aren't intimidated by the strangeness of a uniform. I'm also hopeful that one of them might say "Hold on a minute lads, I know that dog. That's Odin, and its ok, he's on our side".

Kidding myself? Maybe a little. Given his size, they will have to treat him as a threat, at first, but if he's familiar with uniforms, he'll calm down that much sooner. Its funny, but I don't even like to think about the poor lad getting upset in the first place.
.
rachel540
Posts: 515
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:31 am
Location: West Yorkshire

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by rachel540 »

Oh my goodness! That was horrendous! I know there was a warning (and another from gwd) but they showed that on the news?! Sorry no intelligent opinion/input - ive just never seen anything like that before :shock: what a horrible situation.
Pictures of Pepper viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14364
gwd
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by gwd »

Flyby wrote:How very sad for Max. Whoever was to blame, it sure wasn't him. I don't blame the cop, although I wouldn't commend him for bravery either.
the guy was already handcuffed. if everyone had just froze for a moment and someone, anyone would have said, 'sit' in a happy voice i'm betting it would have been a very different outcome.

the owner was a douche for even being in that situation..........the cop also earns my ire. they're suppose to be the intelligent, in control part of the equation. ........owner was a douche and cop overreacted with lethal force........the loser is the poor dog.
Flyby wrote: Kidding myself? Maybe a little. Given his size, they will have to treat him as a threat, at first, but if he's familiar with uniforms, he'll calm down that much sooner. Its funny, but I don't even like to think about the poor lad getting upset in the first place.
.
I don't know how my dogs would react.........but at least I've entered a "ICE" number in my cell phone for dogs should I ever be in an accident.
Image
jacksdad
Posts: 4887
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:48 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by jacksdad »

gwd wrote: the cop also earns my ire. they're suppose to be the intelligent, in control part of the equation. ........owner was a douche and cop overreacted with lethal force........the loser is the poor dog.
full disclosure.... I have 3 Police officers in my immediate family, been around cops pretty much all my life. As a consequence of this, I do see a side that others often don't. which in some cases is too bad. I wish more people could see and know what i know. In others, it is better that you don't. Police officers are human just like everyone else. they are not perfect, they come from a wide range of backgrounds and life experiences. Some are super intelligent. some not so much. Some "get off" on their power, others don't care about "the power" and just want to keep everyone safe and get the bad guy. I have met officers who I would not turn my back on, others who I would not hesitate to trust with my life. In short, they no different then the rest of us.

As for their training...their training isn't as spectacular and broad as people talk them self into believing. IF we were to train officers to the level people think they are or should be, there would be no one on the street patrolling, they would all be in the classroom for their entire careers.

what they do get training in, it if often pretty good. But it focuses on the most common things they need to know to do their job. reading dog isn't high on the list. things like how to ID child abuse, how to ID different drugs, deal with gang members, what questions they can and can't ask, traffic enforcement, general legal concepts that affect their job, understanding the most common laws they will need to enforce and so on.

The office who shot the Rottie acted on the training he had. which clearly did not prepare him for this situation. AND if we were discussing a dog who bit a human, verse a human who shot a dog, we would be looking at all kinds of factors to explain (but not always excuse) why the dog bit. That way we know how to proceed to reduce the chances of the dog biting again. often in the course of trying to figure out why a dog bit, we will say that A led to B, and B led to C, and then D happened...if D hadn't happened the bit would not have happened, so make sure D never happens again. This is often refereed to as trigger stacking when multiple triggers pile up without a break.

The officer was in the middle of a trigger stacking situation. He acted on the training he had, AND probably some VERY incorrect perceptions/knowledge of dogs. This explains why the officer shot, and legally he was justified. BUT that is not the same as he had to shoot, there was no choice and people were at risk. If you have even the basics in "reading dog" you could tell this dog was not a danger to anyone. So clearly there is MASSIVE room for improvement.

If we look at things objectively, preventing situations like this isn't just about saving dogs. ANYTIME an officer uses their weapon, there is a risk to by standers. So, we need to find ways to get the word out about how to "read dog" not just to save dogs, but to save humans. sooner or later someone is going to be injured as a collateral damage situation in one of these dog shootings that didn't have to happen.

In my opinion, we can sit back and curse and rage at the cops....OR we can try and find ways to get the knowledge they need to better assess dogs to them. Better "us" than the dominance types.

here is a little something that gives me hope http://www.statesman.com/news/news/loca ... ies/nRpbY/

If that can happen in Texas, I don't see why it can't happen in California.
gwd
Posts: 1958
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:33 pm

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by gwd »

jacksdad wrote:full disclosure.... I have 3 Police officers in my immediate family,
fair enough! and in the spirit of that same full disclosure, I've had some VERY unpleasant interactions with LEO's. it's funny too, i'm not the sort of person you'd ever figure would have any sort of issues.......or draw the unwanted attention of police. it's not worth me listing every example but just for a taste, I once had a police officer back into me. he proceeded to write me a ticket after calling his superior officer. he flat out lied and said i'd hit him when I hadn't even put my keys in the ignition yet........they were buried at the bottom of my purse and I was just sitting in my car sifting around looking for them. .......of course his story about how I didn't look in my rear view mirror before backing out of my parking spot is the one his superior officer believed.

one more...........I had sent my 10 year old with his friends to play in the canyon with their airsoft guns. all of the kids were wearing that cheapy plastic googles and neon chest protectors. ........even if we lived in the barrio (which we don't, basic upper mid class subdivision), it would have been clear these were kids playing with orange airsoft guns. cop and his partner had all three of them lined up and actually drew his service revolver and stuck it behind my 10 year olds ear. ........he wanted to scare him.

when the cop was telling me about what happened .......he winked at me. I think he expected me to be appreciative. .........all he taught my son is that police are not to be trusted.

I think the upsetting part for me is that as a citizen we are totally at their mercy.
jacksdad wrote: here is a little something that gives me hope http://www.statesman.com/news/news/loca ... ies/nRpbY/

If that can happen in Texas, I don't see why it can't happen in California.
Colorado has also recently passed some legislation to protect dogs from police as the have had an increase in officers shooting dogs. the last one was a 5 month old Chihuahua which supposedly had the officer fearful for his life. :roll:
Image
ClareMarsh
Posts: 2008
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:11 am
Location: London, UK

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by ClareMarsh »

gwd wrote:Colorado has also recently passed some legislation to protect dogs from police as the have had an increase in officers shooting dogs. the last one was a 5 month old Chihuahua which supposedly had the officer fearful for his life. :roll:
I think it's important to remember that although we see a dog's life as having value, especially our own dogs who are basically family, many other people don't. They are seen as animals with no rights. I'm like Ari, I assume everyone is a potential problem until I see something that makes me believe otherwise. For me this is the owner's fault, in an ideal world the officer would have been trained to deal with the dog but we live in a far from ideal world, especially for dogs. It's our job to keep them safe in this nutzo world we require them to live in.
Proud owner of Ted and baby Ella
My blog about Ted http://tinkerwolf.com/
Ted's Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/Tinkerwolf
Ted's You Tube Channel http://www.youtube.com/user/TheTedVids
Flyby
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:04 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by Flyby »

Don't forget either, there is a breed of person who likes a dog to be aggressive, and if it bites a policeman it's no bad thing. In the world of pit bulls, rotties, and 'dangerous dogs' in general, we need to recognise the police have an added layer of threat to be aware of. I'm not a policeman, but if I was confronted by someone opening seeking confrontation and trying to be a nuisance, if he was accompanied by a large dog, I would be hearing alarm bells too.

It's curious, I recently read an incident where a 120bs Ridgeback actively prevented someone's daughter being kidnapped, and people comment to the effect "you know you cannot 'negotiate' with a guard dog". Then you see a Rottie intervening when someone has physical hold of his master, and he get's shot, largely for the same presumption you cannot negotiate with a guard dog. One dog is a hero, the other a corpse, and the difference is a matter of circumstance.

Again, putting myself in that situation, would I take a bite before I opened fire? Personally, I think I would, but my judgement is based on the difference between a single bite and a sustained attack. The cop's judgement was merely a lesser threat level.
User avatar
minkee
Posts: 2034
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:58 am
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: LAPD shoots rottie

Post by minkee »

When your police are allowed to carry lethal weapons and therefore literally have your life in their hands, I expect that makes for much more intense feelings one way or another!
Post Reply