Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

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jacksdad
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by jacksdad »

RLTW, absolutely nothing wrong with stepping back for awhile or all together. The training advice forum can be an emotional drain sometimes. if your feeling dragged down, then you aren't in a good place to help others. you need to take care of your self first or your no good to anyone else.

I would like to take this off topic just a little and plead that people don't hold lack of Internet searching or even forum searches against anyone asking for help. these "simple" skills are not as simple as they seem, and the built in forum search is notoriously poor. which isn't a knock against this board or anyone who runs it, it's a weakness of the software. search is a very technical field and not every programmer has the skills required to code up good search engines. And before you say it, not everyone knows the "google trick". Then there is the whole needing to know the right concepts/words to do a search on. With all the dominance based theory explanations out there that have become so "common knowledge", not too many people are going to think "oh I need to search for fearful dogs verse "dominance/aggressive" dogs.

And for asking the same question over and over. after giving this some thought, while it can be a drag in some sense, I would actually prefer someone ask yet one more time a common question than dig out an older thread from years ago that may or may not have up to date accurate info or poorly explained info. the more you explain something, the better you get at it and if it's a topic you are interested (or passionate about) the best phrased explanation and most up to date info will be given out today, not 5 years ago.

helping here is basically teaching. teaching is basically having to explain the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and being able to listen to basically the same stories over and over and over and over and over and responding like it's the first time you have heard it conveying the right mix to welcome, feel your pain, here is some customized personal help/advice, swift kick to the pants etc. doing this isn't for everyone. and even for those that enjoy it, it can be a drag sometimes.

knowing your limits for doing this is a good thing and nothing to feel bad about (which I hope you don't) and I am sure you will continue to help anyway you can.
Sarah83
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Sarah83 »

wvvdiup1 wrote:How about the ones we've answered, but they still insist they have another way and do it, only to make the issue or problem worse, then they come back and say "My dog(s) is (are) still doing (the issue or problems the dog(s) is (are) doing)? It's as though they don't listen! :shock:
Lol, these are the ones I stop responding to. I've got patience with those who want to learn but if they're just going to ignore the advice and keep asking the same question hoping to get a different answer then I stop wasting my time and energy replying.

I fully support Runlikethewinds decision to stop posting on certain topics, I'm just trying to point out that with so much conflicting advice out there it is very difficult sometimes to seperate the good advice from the bad, especially as the bad advice has been around for so long and is so widespread and pretty much "common knowledge" even with non doggy people. Also, fearful behaviour is often mistaken for dominant or aggressive behaviour, do a search for dominant or aggressive dog and you'll get a whole different set of results than you would searching for fearful dog.

What may seem a silly question to those of us who've been reading and learning about positive training for years isn't necessarily a silly question to those who are new to it. And sometimes the dogs owner is just too close to the situation to see the obvious until it's pointed out to them. Personally I'd rather people ask "stupid" questions and learn better ways of training than carry on using the harsher methods because they're worried about being judged for not already knowing it.
Flyby
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Flyby »

That's mostly fair comment but with a slight aftertaste of unfair comment Runlikethewind.

If you're fed up and frustrated that people don't listen or ignore good advice, by all means take a time out and give yourself some breathing space. But don't forget, for every 'difficult' and vocal customer you get, there may a dozen more silent ones walking away grateful for your help and advice. These may people who aren't even registered, and it's a sad fact of life that much of your good advice and wealth of experience will be a thankless task which is unappreciated for the most part, - but thankless is a world apart from worthless.

If you're beginning to feel resentful or resented for addressing the issues, then for your own peace of mind and mental welfare, stop. Let someone else carry the torch for a while. It happens all the time, people get tired of visiting the same forums and take a break. Sometimes they don't come back, but very often they do.

But to speak up in defence of the stupid, a sector of society I know something about, if you go to any other forum, in every one you will find a core of repetitive threads covering the same topics over and over again. There are invariably 'stickies' to cover these repetitve issues which everybody has gone through over and over again, but it's the nature of public forums that new members will still arrive and kick off a new thread where everybody else groans 'here we go again'.

In my experience, referring new faces to the stickie list is helpful on a basic level, but it's such a basic level that the new face often interprets his introduction to the forum is less than welcome. If you think about it from their point of view, if you can take the time to tell him where the stickie is, couldn't you probably have answered most of his question in as many words? Remember, they don't know the issue has been put to bed a hundred times before. Furthermore, if an issue is repetitive in a forum, that means the problem is repetitive in the real world and touching the lives of lots of people.

And lastly, in defence of 'newbies', searching for information in an unfamiliar forum is not at easy as it might be. Yes there are 'search' options, but try them. They're pretty hopeless sometimes. Often they will only search for one word. As a prime example, I've just seached this forum for the word 'fear', and it's kicked up 423 matches over 29 pages.

I always try to picture myself in a public library. Somebody comes to the desk and asks for help about dog training. Being referred to the stickie pile is like being told, "Yes, there's a book on that in the Non-fiction section". Technically, that is helping them, but it's helpful and friendly to taken right to the shelf.
WufWuf
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by WufWuf »

I don't think RLTW was saying she had a problem answering people's questions I think it was more an issue with having to read the cruel attitudes that people can sometimes have towards animals i.e knock his teeth out or take him out back and shoot him - both things I've seen on here in recent weeks. I can understand how someone could be upset by reading these statements.

However I will say that this is the only forum I read as it's the only one I've found where the people who are giving advice are actually giving the best up-to-date scientific information available. I feel safe here in the knowledge that NO ONE is going to say yeah knock his teeth out, that'll put some manners on him. The advice that they'll be given will be kind and helpful which might not be something the poster's used to, how many people who would think it's ok to be with someone who'd shoot their dog have had good support in their lives? I try to bare in mind that someone who's say's they'll knock their dogs teeth out has proably had the same threat issued to them. Some people grow up in a world of violence and never find their way out. They think the only path through life is one of fight to live. I'm not saying that makes it ok but I try to remember that it's hard to be something you've never seen.
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Nettle
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Nettle »

Flyby wrote:thankless is a world apart from worthless.
Thank you, Flyby, for that lovely point.

I think most of us have to dip out sometimes and dip back in again when we feel stronger, or not at all. I certainly get days when I am not in the best frame of mind to deal with certain aspects (the thread's too long for me to read, I tried it once it didn't work, I don't like the advice so far, has anybody got more etc ad inf.) but luckily there is always someone else to take up the baton until I can get motivated again.

And we DO need to bear in mind that the internet is a tricky medium for communication because we can't see the smile or the shrug, and we don't all use words the same way. That said, sometimes people come on in different guises just to lob in a grenade and then chuckle at the results. That's their problem not ours, as the advice we give in good faith is always useful to someone - especially our silent readers who do not post.

I often suggest people use the 'Search' having been blissfully unaware that it wasn't very good :lol: so apologies to all!

RLTW, your help and experiences are always of value and much appreciated.
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minkee
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by minkee »

I don't think the search function is TERRIBLE, but part of the problem is that things are SO common on here, that searching for 'recall' will get you a million results! Searching for 'clicker training' will return just about every post! And as someone mentioned, most people turning up here don't know what it is they're searching for until we tell them. eg. 'fear reactive' vs 'aggressive, dominant'.

When you, Nettle, or any of the other clever clogs :P post a reply saying try this thread or that thread, I try and post the links to those threads in that same thread (saying thread too many times uhoh). Anyway, I try to make the links available so it's nice and easy to find, and it makes me feel useful! :P

I also tried to put all the most common useful threads into this post: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11503 which I think is mainly useful as a quick reference for us, rather than expecting newcomers to read through and understand.
emmabeth
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by emmabeth »

I have to say, I am exceedingly grateful for EVERYONES efforts here, whether it is just chatting in here or posting links (that is brilliantly helpful because I tend to get side tracked if i go off finding a thread to link!) or getting stuck in, or finding posts with no replies and responding....

Users are what keeps a forum alive, so please people, do what you WANT to do, have fun with it, enjoy this place - if you want to take a step back or only focus on the more easy going stuff, thats cool with me ;) I do understand that repeating the same information over and over for each new poster can get a bit draining, but I think it IS important we do this.

Not only is there a risk if you insist people search (and some forums are really strict about this, posters who haven't searched first DO have their posts deleted immediately!) that they find something that sounds right to them but actually isn't appropriate, but a lot of people just don't have the required skill (and it is no slight against them!) to use the search functions which ARE quite difficult to use if you are not familiar with them )and on a forum like this will result in a million results that might not be useful!), or they do not know what it is they are looking for!
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ClareMarsh
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by ClareMarsh »

Going sort of off topic a little focussing on the not searching first / same old problem again and again. For the more basic stuff, puppy weeing in the house, chewing everything, dog doesn't come when called etc then it's nice for the newer people/dog owners to be able to answer and say I'm dealing with that with my pup, have a look at when I asked this and give some simple advice knowing that the more experienced people are looking over our shoulders and will pick up any gaps/errors :D .

That has let me as a newbie feel I am giving something to the forum as well as getting loads from it. So what to the old hands might feel like here we go again, to me is, ooooo I can actually be useful here. So the same old question isn't all bad necessarily.

I appreciate i need to come back and read this post in a years time and see if I still feel the same way then :? :lol: :lol:
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jacksdad
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by jacksdad »

minkee, the search function built into forum software is HORRIBLY ineffective over all. it's no where as useful as it technically needs to be. The simple reason for this is writing the code to perform this function is very complex and has to try and figure out what people want, not what they asked for and be able to sift through and eliminate close matches.

Did you know that Yahoo didn't start out as a place to search site? it was a manually built directory of interesting sites that people found by them self and felt were helpful that you had to click your way through based on how the manually organized data. the "search box" as we know it today (ie google) came later. Alta Vista was an early pioneer in this, but Google really made the break through for searching for data verse sifting through a directory. Google on the other hand is all about searching out data and and other "search sites" actually used their technology to provide search capability. Including Yahoo for a while.

Getting a little off topic, but please, please take for granted that the built in forum search function is ineffective, not worthless (but close), just ineffective. There is a nice "trick" for using Google to perform searches on this forum that is much, much more useful and returns much better and much more relevant results to what people ask for and really wanted. I thought we had a sticky or thread about this, if not I would be happy to put one together. Particularly since Google is "hiding" there advanced search features these days. And as Emma says, even if the search tools are good, using them effectively is a learned and developed skill. Part of which is dependent on knowing the right words to search for.

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread....
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minkee
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by minkee »

When I say 'not terrible', I mostly just mean I can often find what I'm looking for, Jacksdad :) Doesn't necessarily translate that everyone or anyone else can though.

I realise we're getting far away from the topic here now, but I have 2 little tips, as they seem relevant right now, just incase anyone doesn't know.

1. If a thread has a new post in it, you can click the orange page next to the thread title and it will take you straight to the first post you have not read.
Image

2.If you want to check if there have been any unanswered posts lately, there's a link at the top of the forum here (see pic). Also links to see all the unread posts, etc.
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ladybug1802
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by ladybug1802 »

I am actually away on hols in the sun at the moment so havent got time to read everyoines posts (sorry!)...but what I will say is I do feel the same a lot of the time. It makes me so mad to still read peopleś posts when they get so angry with their dogs for the tiniest of behavuiours they see as unacceptable. I admit I never every get angry with Dylan......I dont know why, I just dont. I do get fruistrated sometimes, but only when he, for example, runs off after a squirrel and I am left standing there like an idiot for a few mins and then he rerturns! But I never feel angry with him, and I do feel that if people are even considering knocking their dogs teeth out or head off or whatever, no matter how much they have no intentions of literally doing that, they maybe should not have a dog? Just a passing comment....not meant to offend!

I also find I dont post as much now....I find if I post about my own experiences, which admittedly at the moment have been positive ones and ones I am so over the moon proud of, the same people respond......I see a lot of others look at the post, but not many respond, so there seems little point! I dont want to be the one who posts and whos posts are unwelcome, for want of a better word! And I do find a lot of posts do make me upset or angry, and it is frustrating when the OP, even when getting advice from so many of us, still disagrees and queastions it. BUt...I suppose that is a path to learning. These things will be new to these people and questioning is natural, but I find it heartbreakikng when people wont, for example, even consider giving up certain aversives and dont even see how they may be hurting or damaging their dog. But I digress!!

And with regards the forum search function....I (in the good old days last year!) spent many an hour trying to search for related posts on fear aggression, and put sooooo many different phrases in....but of course a lot of the time these specific phrases dont actually apperar in the posts so they dont flag up! Technology huh!

Anyway, juist had a cocktail so not sure if this even makes any sense!
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by JudyN »

ladybug1802 wrote:Ithe same people respond......I see a lot of others look at the post, but not many respond, so there seems little point!
I'd just like to pick up on this bit... I run one forum, and am a regular poster on this one and another doggy forum. I think I may also have a touch of RSI in my fingers.... :x Quite often I'll read a post, really appreciate it, but not reply because I haven't really got much to add, and my fingers hurt, and I have another half a dozen new registrations on my forum to check out... So please don't think that a lack of response means your post isn't useful and appreciated.

On my other forum, when discussing issues I've had responses ranging from the sort that I'd find on this forum, through 'He's not respecting you,' to 'If my dog did that I'd put my boot up his @rse.' People looking for advice will also come across a whole range of advice, and really, all we can do is give the advice, and let people decide for themselves. It would be arrogant to believe that everything we believe is always the best option for all dogs. But if we keep on saying 'This is what we belive is your best strategy and the one that will result in stopping the issue you have and build on your relationship with your dog,' then even if only 50% of people take that advice, it's worth it :D

I hope that made sense, I've been on the gin.... :oops:
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Wes
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Wes »

I think the reason I don't respond to a lot of posts is I feel like other people say what I want to say better than I can. :lol: I have a hard time with words a lot and don't always come out clear and in a concise manner. I am on this forum daily and do read every post; I really should respond to more topics, I just get "forum shy."
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Fundog »

Ladybug said: "Just had a cocktail, so not sure if any of this makes sense."

And Judy N said: "I hope that made sense; I've been on the gin."


Good grief, I'm on my second beer (Samuel Adams Holiday Porter)! What's with all us boozers, anyway? It must be Happy Hour. :lol: Anyone else want to join our little party? We've got a box of wine in the fridge too. Who has the chocolates, and the cake? It sounds like some people could sure use some about now. :lol:
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Noobs
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Re: Refraining from posting on fear-based issues...

Post by Noobs »

BOXED WINE? What are we, savages? :lol:

Well I guess I'll grab a bottle of Sam Adams Octoberfest out of my fridge and join you guys! L is out seeing a show, River's sleeping, and here I am on my computer (a rare occasion these days unless I'm at work!), doing a little work but also checking into the forum. This is the only one I go to - surprisingly I haven't joined any Mom forums! - so I like to see what folks are up to. I can't participate in the training advice forum because it's so draining for me. It was much easier for me before, mostly because I had more time, but also because I was going through the same things with my dog, learning and loving sharing my experiences to help guide people to more humane methods. But nowadays, since losing Murphy I just find it emotionally draining, going on here and reading the types of posts OP was talking about, and also seeing the people in my own life being ignorant about their dogs as well. The worst part is that for how untrained all these dogs are around me, none of them have the fear issues Murphy had, so everyone around me gets to be blissfully ignorant, yelling at their dogs, smacking their faces when they get their nose somewhere they're not supposed to, and these poor lovely dogs never snap or anything. That's what is the most painful part of my short dog-caregiver experience.

I agree with OP and many here. I really take it personally when people say things that make it look like they regard their dogs as adversaries rather than poor beings who just don't know any better, or aren't doing anything wrong, just being dogs and being misunderstood.

I feel as though I'm rambling and I haven't even had a sip of beer yet! Well I'm off to it.

Hope everyone is well. I miss coming here but it's best that I keep my involvement to a minimum for the time being. I really appreciate how kind you are to me when I do show up once in a while. :D
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