Searching for my next dog / temperment tests

[jbirdsd]

I'm not sure if this is the right board for this but couldn't find a clear better choice.

I'm searching for my next puppy or dog. My last was a chihuahua and am considering either same or papillon. Am open to puppy or young adult.

I want to get educated before making my next commitment.

Can anyone adivise;
1) how to find a trustworthy quality breeder?
2) how to pick a pup? (e.g. temperment tests, behavior clues, best age etc)

I've heard get one at 10 weeks and you have the best shot to "raise her right". I've heard knowing 'the line' really counts (I can't imagine how I'd know that). I've also heard get an adult and you'll know more about who they are because after 1 to 1.5 years their personality is fairly stable.

(oh, I"m in southern Calif. if that matters)

[Nettle]

What a lovely question - as a retired GB (Good Breeder) I can help.

GBs plan their litters well ahead, and don't breed all that often - so look at where breeders advertise, and get the pattern - those who have pups advertised every couple of months are not GBs.

Decide on your preferred breed(s) and read up on them, especially any inheritable health issues. GBs like people who choose the dog for how it is not what it looks like. Dogs used to have jobs, and they retain the natures that suit those jobs. We need to be sure that those natures suit us - because you can't change a dog's inherent nature.

Check with all your local vets if they know who breeds the breed(s) in which you are interested. Note: some people will try and fob you off with rescues or send you on a guilt trip because you are buying from a breeder. Ignore them - they are making themselves feel good at your expense.

Look up who breeds those breeds, see how often they breed, how many dogs they have. Walk away from the big breeders. You want a "hobby breeder" - one who breeds to improve the breed not their bank balance.

Talk to those breeders you get a good feel for. Explain you have decided to get a pup of their breed, and ask if they are planning a litter. Expect to be interviewed ruthlessly about your lifestyle, what you can offer the puppy as a life, whether you have children, grandchildren, full-time work, what plans you have to accommodate the puppy's needs - the LOT. GBs place their pups VERY carefully.

If you are offered an older dog, refuse. These will have been "run on" to see which is best. Don't take retired breeding stock either. They won't be what you want, and this is a fob-off. Don't take any pup with a "breeding contract" that either demands one litter from it if a ladydog or one service if a male. Do not enter into any agreement to have the pup neutered - that's YOUR decision to be taken in your time, and do not take a pup already neutered. These people are not GBs.

GBs will put you on a waiting list if they are planning a litter. This is normal.

Ask to see the prospective mother of the litter, and run away from a breeder who says No. When you meet the ladydog, she should be friendly, waggy and outgoing. Ask about the sire and look him up or contact his owner. Owners of good stud dogs may be able to point you towards other litters too. How do you know a good stud dog? He won't be used all that often, and he will look good and have a good temperament.

GBs may have their pups in the house, or in a yard, or kennelled. Do not disregard them for outdoor pups - some breeds need a lot of space early on. As long as pups are CLEAN and fat with shiny coats, clear eyes and nothing running from any orifice, and run towards you wagging their tails - they are okay. A bit of a scruffy set-up is fine if it's clean - a smart set-up that smells is not.

GBs' pups may be expensive. Expensive pups are not necessarily good, but good pups are seldom cheap.

If you are visiting several litters, don't do it on the same day - you may carry infection.

If you book a pup, you will be asked for a deposit. GBs will give you a receipt without being asked.

I have to go now - I'll be back with more later.

[Noobs]

Wow, what a great post, Nettle. I hope Mods sticky this.

[Nettle]

Part 2

Puppy temperament comes from both parents. However, a ladydog with pups can be VERY antsy. This doesn't mean she's always antsy - it means she is full of maternal protectiveness. You may have to see Mommadog and puppers separately - but make sure you see both. This is one good reason for visiting Mommadog before she is bred.

Breeder will tell you when you can visit - usually when puppers are about 4 weeks old. Before then, they are too young to see what they will be like except to the GB, who will spend hours with them and know their personalities to a T. Don't get annoyed if the breeder recommends one particular pup to you - s/he will have a very good idea of which character of pup will suit you best. If any pups are weak or deformed, this person is not a GB - but a pup smaller than the rest is fine.

Sit and watch the puppers. If the breeder tells you not to pick them up, don't. I don't let people pick pups up - then they can't be dropped. And anyway it scares them. Just sit and watch the pups and you will see the strong character, the independent one, the shy one, the smart one. They should run over to you pleased to see you, then play with each other, then flop out and sleep. If one pup stays with you - that's yours. If not - don't fret. GBs let you take your time choosing, but don't stay for hours. Visit the pups on your own so YOU choose not the person/people with you.

Visit again at 5 or 6 weeks. Puppers will be much more advanced. Watch them play again, and interact with each other and you. Teeth will be sharp because they are just starting to learn bite inhibition. Puppers should be eager to see you, chew you, bounce all over you. Then they will run off and do puppy stuff. This is the time to make your final decision. GBs will ask if you have a name for the pup, and if you have, they will then use that name for that pup.

Check pup for the right number of toes on each foot, a correct mouth for the breed, no umbilical hernia (bump where the bellybutton would be if it had one) and that it blinks when you move a finger past each eye. Do not do any "psychological" tests like rolling pup over or holding it down. GBs will have already done their health checks as above, but it's a good habit to get into.

Aim to take pup home at 8 weeks old. GBs will give you a bill of sale, any breed documents, a diet sheet, and information on when puppers were last wormed, and what with.

If you have booked a pup from a litter and then get a pup from elsewhere please please let the GB know, because then s/he won't be saving a pup for you, and someone else can have it.

GBs sometimes look very brave and sad when their pup goes - Not-GBs count the cash and smile.....

If I've missed anything, let me know.

[wvvdiup1]

12 Red Flags when looking at Dog Breeders

1. Puppies that have not been socialized.
Puppies that are very skittish and try to hide, freak out when you try to pick them up.

2. Puppies that have not seen a veterinarian.
Obvious signs: runny eyes or nose, coughing, bloated bellies.

3. Breeders that are reluctant to give you references.
If they don't want to give you a reference, look elsewhere period!

4. Breeders that breed more than one breed of dog.

5. Breeders that won't allow you to see their breeding facility or environment.
The "I'll meet you at the nearest exit" with the pup doesn't cut it.

6. Breeder facilities that look like puppy mills.

7. Puppies that appear dirty or smell/living in poor conditions.
Smell, poo stuck to coat, dull coats, flaky skin.

8. Breeders that don't work with a veterinarian providing good quality prenatal care to the *****.

9. Breeders that don't take the puppies to their veterinarian in for general "wellness care" and health certificates.
Pups should be vaccinated prior to being placed and have a State Health Certificate from a licensed vet.

10. Breeders that won't give you a guarantee.

11. Breeders that don't want to you meet the pups parents.
Always meet the sire & dam. Sometimes the sire might not be available due to being an outside stud.

12. Breeders that sell to pet stores.
I don't think many would admit to this, but if you ask and they are truthful enough to tell you "yes", then......run.

[Sarah83]

Aim to take pup home at 8 weeks old.

Most people I know online who breed tiny breeds (Chi's, Cresteds etc) won't home their pups until 12 weeks old. Not sure of the reasons, just something I've picked up from threads in various places. Only seems to apply to toy breeds though, 7-8 weeks seems the norm for other breeds. Just thought I'd mention that as the OP is looking for a toy breed.

[emmabeth]

Just to add to the already excellent advice...

Toy breeds are usually kept with the breeder longer because sthey are smaller and more delicate - thats fine IF the breeder can offer the sort of home environment you will be taking your puppy to when you pick him/ her up.

So if your breeder has the pups indoors socialised and habituated to sensible visitors, household noises and sights, adult dogs, car travel, alarms and phones etc etc - AND has started on the basics of recall and potty training (ie, pooping and peeing outdoors). Grand. Brilliant, not a problem.

IF those puppies have been kept to one room, toiletting on newspaper or bedding, not exposed to any of daily household life (or similar, outside in a shed), and none of the basics of training have been started and they have met no one, human or canine or feline....... then no, not good, walk away, because a pup that is not habituated and socialised with these things up to 12 weeks and more IS going to be VERY hard to 'fix' - they will be well into their fear period when they go home and the whole world will be a scary revelation to them and that is not what you want for the first weeks of your dogs new life with you, fear and anxiety and worry!

Oh and just to disagree with a point on wvvdiup1's list - some good breeders will keep and breed more than 1 breed, sometimes two or even three - BUT they will NOT be likely to have puppies from ALL those breeds at the same time. It does very very occasionally happen that two planned litters occur at the same time but this is almost as rare as rocking horse poop - so its pretty safe to say that multiple breeds is ok, but multiple LITTERS is a great big red flag!

If you do come across a set up like that, question question question. It sometimes happens that people fall in love with two breeds and those breeds compliment one another quite well - for example i cannot see a time when I wont have a tibetan terrier and a deerhound, the mixture of the two personalities in my home is great. If you went to someones home and they clearly bred both Tibetan Terriers AND Deerhounds (but not at the same time or to each other ) its unlikely they are a puppy mill - neither breed is at teh top of the popularity lists, though Tibbies are more popular than Deerhounds.

If you went somewhere and they had planned litters from say, black labs, chocolate labs, yellow labs, golden retreivers and cocker spaniels........ those are all extremely popular, so thats a bit of a warning sign. Ditto someone who has plans to breed say Chihauhuas, Toy Poodles, Yorkshire Terriers, Westies..... all within the same year..

So do question things a lot - good breeders do not mind polite questions!

[Ceretrea]

I am intrigued. Why not acquire an older dog from a breeder? Papillon rescue helped us find ours, he's an ex show dog. Breed rescue could be an option for you and they will also tell you a lot of cons about the breed as they see the other side of it.

[Nettle]

Ex show dogs can be as much trouble as rescues vis a vis retraining - many aren't even housetrained and few are properly socialised. Okay for the person who knows what to do and is happy to put the work in, but not OP.

To add to the temperament issues - temperament is inborn/genetic but environment will mould the inherent traits.

So - you could have a naturally cautious puppy. The good owner builds its confidence and has a delightful dog: the bad owner frightens the bejasus out of it by putting it in overwhelming situations, keeping it in a rowdy household, trying dominance theory training - and gets a fear-biter or a totally shut-down dog that doesn't interact with people at all, or one that messes and wees in the home through insecurity, or......

You could have a naturally bold puppy. The good owner tempers its boldness by calmly dealing with any challenging situations: the bad owner tries to punish the boldness and ends up with a dog that goes in fast and early in any new situation and challenges other dogs to combat.

I respectfully disagree with the vaccination and veterinarian comments - no point vaccinating pups before 8 weeks old as maternal immunity should still be present and if so the vaccine will not develop further immunity. As for a vet certificate - its value depends on the vet.

[Noobs]

OP is looking for a pup, so I think everyone's focus is on that.

[wvvdiup1]

Someone has added more to this list:

12 Tips on "Red Flags" when Looking at Dog Breeders

1. Puppies that have not been socialized.
Puppies that are very skittish and try to hide, freak out when you try to pick them up.
Socialized pups should be inquisitive, want to crawl over top of you, and want to interact with you. Socialized pups will be used to being held, petted, feet touched etc. and totally be comfortable climbing up on you lap to sleep!

2. Puppies that have not seen a veterinarian.
Obvious signs: runny eyes or nose, coughing, bloated bellies.
Even pups that have seen a vet may have these signs. When you visit the pups look at their coats, they should be soft and shinny, they should be in good weight even plump at this age, absolutely NO ribs should be able to be felt. The pups should be energetic when awake. Their little nails should have been trimmed.

3. Breeders that are reluctant to give you references.
If they don't want to give you a reference, look elsewhere period!
Good breeders will not only be willing to give you references they are going to want references from you too - I require a vet reference and 2 personal references.

4. Breeders that breed more than one breed of dog.
I don't agree with this, there are many good breeders that breed 2 different breeds, i.e. Dobes and Pugs, or French Bull Dogs and Bostons. But more than 2 breeds and more than a litter or 2 of each breed a year is a definite red flag. there are many commercial breeders that have only 1 breed House of Hoyt comes immediately to mind. I would look more for how many pups they are producing a year.

5. Breeders that won't allow you to see their breeding facility or environment.
The "I'll meet you at the nearest exit" with the pup doesn't cut it.
I agree with the Meet you some where else as a red flag, but I disagree with the rest, most good breeders breed and raise their pups in their homes - private residences - they are not going to walk you out back to the nice kennel building. Good Breeders will allow you to come to their home, by appointment after you have been screened. The incidence of attacks and thefts are on the rise and that includes breeders who allow strangers to come to their home, under the guise of meeting the parents of a litter, and then attacking the breeder and stealing as many pups and dogs as they can fit in their vehicle. So Good breeders will usually not allow prospective buyers to "just drop by" without having been checked out.

Also when ever company comes to visit me, they leave their shoes outside, wear surgicle booties and hospital gowns and wipe down with disenfectant wipes. VISTORS can bring diseases into our homes easily. I encourge people to come and visit up to 1 week prior to pups being born, but after that, I don't want my girl stressed out in any fashion, so I won't allow visits from then until the pups are 6 weeks old. I have read too many horror stories of Parvo, brucellosis, kennel cough and one time distemper being walked into a breeders home by the visitors shoes.

And during visitation, you visit in my living room, I bring the dogs out to you. NO one is allowed in my whelping room, because its my bedroom and its private.

You want to look for dogs in good weight, shinny coats, clean, nails done, eyes bright, and well trained and behaved.

6. Breeder facilities that look like puppy mills.
This one has me puzzled. To me if you get to a breeder and they have a separate building to keep all the dogs - this might be a yellow flag, but I personally know some really good GSD and Dobe breeders that keep a dozen or more dogs and they have a small 6 or 10 run Kennel that the show dogs are kept in, or even the pups after a certain age. If they are housing more than 15-20 dogs that would be a red flag to me. Again you have to look for cleanliness, smell, of facilities and dogs.

7. Puppies that appear dirty or smell/living in poor conditions.
Smell, poo stuck to coat, dull coats, flaky skin.
Agreed

8. Breeders that don't work with a veterinarian providing good quality prenatal care to the *****.
This is going to be hard for most visitors to determine - but certainly when you do your interviewing of a breeder, you should has for THEIR veterinarian as a reference, and call to see that the dogs have received the normal maintenance medical care

9. Breeders that don't take the puppies to their veterinarian in for general "wellness care" and health certificates.
Most good breeders will release any and all pertainent information documenting the puppies medical record and send it home with the buyer.

Pups should be vaccinated prior to being placed and have a State Health Certificate from a licensed vet.
Different breeds have different vaccination protocol, I agree that vacs should be started, but most probably won't be finished before being placed. My pups get their first vaccination at 9 weeks, then 12 weeks, then the last shot in the series is given at 16 weeks - I also wait until 5 or 6 months for the Rabies vaccination to be given, but that is what is recommended for dobes

10. Breeders that won't give you a guarantee.
You even have to be careful when a guarantee is given - the biggest red flag is if for any reason you have to return your puppy in order for the breeder to honor the guarantee - those breeders are counting on you being so attached to your precious sick puppy that they will forgo the breeder honoring the gurantee if it means sending back their pup.

11. Breeders that don't want to you meet the pups parents.
Always meet the sire & dam. Sometimes the sire might not be available due to being an outside stud.
Many times Good Breeders will only have the Dam for you to meet as they used a sire who lives in another state, or in todays world sometimes another country.

12. Breeders that sell to pet stores.
I don't think many would admit to this, but if you ask and they are truthful enough to tell you "yes", then......run.
agreed, you can also ask the breeder to let you have the contact information for other buyers in your pups litter so you can keep in touch - Most breeders who screen prior to placing you on a reservation list are more concerned with where and with whom their pups are being placed. You can be assured a breeder who screens is not selling their pups to pets stores or to brokers.

Hope you don't mind the extra advice from a good breeder.

[Nettle]

Useful additions there.

I also think any contract goes two ways - with all the care and promises the breeder should give, let us have owners committed to giving the puppy TIME, training it properly, feeding it properly, socialising it, taking it to the vet when necessary, seeing that it has adequate freedom, company and occupation without unrealistic expectations such as being crated all day and night, people "forgetting" to take it out to potty children pulling it about and adults picking it up..... I think I'll stop there but you get my drift

Where I vet people more than thoroughly and will always take a puppy back, anyone can get it wrong, and having to rehome a lovely pup that has been ruined by thoughtless treatment is every breeder's nightmare. So let's remember it goes BOTH ways, eh?

I like the idea of prospective puppy buyers being told to contact the breeder's vet.

I wouldn't reveal contact details of other puppy buyers.

Please be aware there is a LOT of theft. We breeders need our precautions too.